It's hard to be a good guy with a gun

[SteyrAUG]

The more I think about it I think her intent was to ambush the next cop who came in the door. I think those two ****s put a little bit of planning into it.

Very likely.

[Koshinn]

One of my best friends posted the link on Facebook. The idea put forth in the article that good guys rarely stop bad guys is actually factually true. It's extremely rare considering the number of shootings. So I replied:

To be intellectually honest, there's a reason good guys with guns extremely rarely, in practice, stop bad guys with guns. It's called "gun free zones". They're places in which guns are illegal, like schools, federal buildings, churches (I think), and any private business that posts a sign forbidding guns. Shopping malls and movie theaters frequently ban guns on their property, even in a very conservative and pro-gun state like Oklahoma.

So the "good guys with guns", being "good guys", obey the law and don't bring guns into the gun free zone. Bad guys with guns, being bad guys, disobey the law (I mean they're going to murder people anyway, what's one more law broken) and bring their guns into the gun free zone. So these bad guys have no one to stop them on an equal footing until the police arrive 15+ minutes later. Even with a musket, you could fire 45 rounds in 15 minutes.

The shooting in Vegas is one of the few times in which an attempted mass shooting happened OUTSIDE of a gun free zone. And what happened? A man named Joseph Wilcox stepped up and put his own safety on the line to stop a criminal from possibly killing many others.

Even if he had been a Ninja Ranger SEAL with a sniper assault machine gun and a high capacity banana drum clip, he would have died in that situation because he was shot in the back. That's no reason not to try.

In Seattle a few days ago, Jon Meis fought back. And he managed to subdue the shooter. Had there been two shooters, he would have been another casualty. But if Meis did not do something, many more people most likely would have died.

Carrying a gun is a very personal decision and it's not for everyone. But those who volunteer to take that responsibility should be allowed to do so. It takes a special kind of person to run towards the sound of gunfire instead of away from it, and wearing a uniform is not a requirement to be that kind of a person.

[SteyrAUG]

One of my best friends posted the link on Facebook. The idea put forth in the article that good guys rarely stop bad guys is actually factually true. It's extremely rare considering the number of shootings. So I replied:

To be intellectually honest, there's a reason good guys with guns extremely rarely, in practice, stop bad guys with guns. It's called "gun free zones". They're places in which guns are illegal, like schools, federal buildings, churches (I think), and any private business that posts a sign forbidding guns. Shopping malls and movie theaters frequently ban guns on their property, even in a very conservative and pro-gun state like Oklahoma.

So the "good guys with guns", being "good guys", obey the law and don't bring guns into the gun free zone. Bad guys with guns, being bad guys, disobey the law (I mean they're going to murder people anyway, what's one more law broken) and bring their guns into the gun free zone. So these bad guys have no one to stop them on an equal footing until the police arrive 15+ minutes later. Even with a musket, you could fire 45 rounds in 15 minutes.

The shooting in Vegas is one of the few times in which an attempted mass shooting happened OUTSIDE of a gun free zone. And what happened? A man named Joseph Wilcox stepped up and put his own safety on the line to stop a criminal from possibly killing many others.

Even if he had been a Ninja Ranger SEAL with a sniper assault machine gun and a high capacity banana drum clip, he would have died in that situation because he was shot in the back. That's no reason not to try.

In Seattle a few days ago, Jon Meis fought back. And he managed to subdue the shooter. Had there been two shooters, he would have been another casualty. But if Meis did not do something, many more people most likely would have died.

Carrying a gun is a very personal decision and it's not for everyone. But those who volunteer to take that responsibility should be allowed to do so. It takes a special kind of person to run towards the sound of gunfire instead of away from it, and wearing a uniform is not a requirement to be that kind of a person.

Add to all that the fact that "bad guys" don't have the same mental inhibitors when it comes to shooting people that most "honest folks" have. Bad guys understand the situation "as it is now", good guys are playing "catch up" and don't know who all the players are. Bad guys also generally have more experience and are better at things like actually shooting people. All of a persons years of tearing up paper don't amount to a handful of incidents where a really bad person kills without hesitation or remorse.

So it is absolutely correct that the armed "good guy" is at a significant disadvantage when dealing with violent, evil criminal types. But does being "unarmed" improve things in any way for the good guy? That is the real question to consider.

I'm not going to suggest that if "I" was in that Wal Mart I would have taken out the two perps and saved the day. But If I had to be in the Wal Mart I'd rather be there WITH a gun than without one.

Once again Obama tried to blame this crap on guns. He suggested we weren't the only country with people with mental issues. He tried to suggest the only difference between us and other countries is here people have access to weapons and large quantities of ammo.

Well that was true in the 1980s and we didn't have a school shooting every other week then either? So we have to ask, what has changed since then? It certainly isn't more guns or easier access to guns. What things are we tolerating in society today that put everyone at risk that wasn't tolerated then? What kinds of people are released into society that might not have been free to walk the streets then?

Why is is every school shooter seems to have severe psychological / mental disorders and yet he is still free enough to write a manifesto, form a plan, access weapons, prestage the attack and still catch everyone off guard? And why are we seemingly producing so many violently sociopathic individuals? What has changed?

Because really, the guns have always been there. And the cars, and the knives and the lead pipes.

[BoringGuy45]

Obama fails to realize that this crap happens ALL THE TIME throughout the world, but often goes unreported due to the nature of many nations' restrictions on press freedom. It only is reported if the death toll is astronomical, it's terrorist related, or it happens in a stable, 1st world country.

[Kokopelli]

People like that guy do as much harm as.. well I won't say..

[bzdog]

While CCW licenses are at an all time high, it's still a small subset of the population and only a fairly small subset of those are actually carrying at a given time for a variety of reasons. Then, only a subset of those are inclined to intercede if they are not directly targets. Then, situations like this are fairly rare despite the impression you get from the media. Add all those up and of course a CCW holder doesn't often stop a violent event.

But those that point to numbers miss the point. It could be 99.99999% ineffective and it wouldn't matter. It's about my right to choose my options when pursuing my personal responsibility for my own safety. Since it's *my* safety, it's *my* choice. It's my *right*. Full stop.

-john

[duece71]

Agreed, there are a lot of things that people neglect to think about in a SD shooting. Many, if not most, are not prepared for everything in the aftermath.

[Renegade]

The idea put forth in the article that good guys rarely stop bad guys is actually factually true.

I would say it is complete factual bullshit since it is impossible to measure what didn't happen, or what has happened in thousands of jurisdictions over the years. Do your "facts" include the time my mother (I was 2) used a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun or did you not know about it when you were collecting these "facts"?

[Safetyhit]

That man died an extremely noble death. Not only did he do the right thing but the circumstance of his passing has firmly entrenched a fundamental rule into anyone of the same mindset.

[SteyrAUG]

That man died an extremely noble death. Not only did he do the right thing but the circumstance of his passing has firmly entrenched a fundamental rule into anyone of the same mindset.

I'm right there with you. He died doing what he felt was the correct thing, even at risk of his own life.

He was caught off guard just like the two "trained LEOs" who lost their lives. For all we really know his attempted intervention brought the shooting to a conclusion when the Millers realized they will now be killing CCW people rather than their preferred targets such as responding officers.

Maybe Wilcox really did manage to save a few people that day.