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Thread: Terminal effectiveness from 7" AR - 5.56mm vs 9mm

  1. #21
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    IMO a better option for a "truck" gun is a 10.5" SBR (just pay the $200, skip the "pistol" route, so many reason why) with a Law Tactical Folding stock adapter.
    Folded it's extremely concealable, but still has the benefits regarding gas pressures, velocity, and accuracy of a 10.5" barrel vs 7".



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  2. #22
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    7.62x39 krinkovs are very good for this role as well. Fit nice into a pack, fire-able folded or extended, and good terminal ballistics. Not what u asked about, just throwing it out there.

  3. #23
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    I considered the SBR approach, but I live in a metropolitan area where making a round trip on the beltway takes you through three states, so an SBR isn't very practical as a car gun here.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnacle Bill View Post
    I considered the SBR approach, but I live in a metropolitan area where making a round trip on the beltway takes you through three states, so an SBR isn't very practical as a car gun here.
    That would for sure take you out of the NFA game..
    In your situation I'd still go the handgun route.. Given magazine capacity laws, extreme anti-gun folks, etc in the beltway area.
    If you get pulled over with a "pistol" AR15 with a sig "brace", I'll bet you'll be in for one heck of legal battle and extraordinarily expensive fight to get it all straightened out.. I doubt flashing some ATF letter to local LE is going to set you on your way. I'd imagine that just let the courts figure it out.
    Just my 2 cents of course.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDE View Post
    That would for sure take you out of the NFA game..
    In your situation I'd still go the handgun route.. Given magazine capacity laws, extreme anti-gun folks, etc in the beltway area.
    If you get pulled over with a "pistol" AR15 with a sig "brace", I'll bet you'll be in for one heck of legal battle and extraordinarily expensive fight to get it all straightened out.. I doubt flashing some ATF letter to local LE is going to set you on your way. I'd imagine that just let the courts figure it out.
    Just my 2 cents of course.
    By "the beltway" I don't mean DC. It's three more or less red states where even Dems who are electable to governor tend to be pro-gun (e.g. concealed carry passed in two of the states under Dem governors who got elected campaigning on passing concealed carry). However, the problem is the Federal NFA rules. You have to get ATF permesso in writing to take an NFA weapon across state lines and that would be a nightmare for a car gun given that e.g. the quickest driving time between certain destinations in the state I live in takes you across into one of the other states & back into mine, the airport is in one of the other states, etc...

    However, until you mentioned & I Googled it, I was unaware of the Law Tactical Folding stock adapter. It is possible that a carbine with a 14.5" barrel & permed A2X flash hider would fit in the Eberlestock pack. Their ad demonstrates it holding a PWS MK107 SBR, which per PWS has an overall length of 24.5". Taking a tape measure to a carbine I have with a 14.5" barrel & permed A2X flash hider, I get 23 - 15/16" from the front of the flash hider to the rear of the lower receiver where the adapter presumably attaches. I don't see the dimension in question on the Law Tactical site, but if the part of the adapter forward of the hinge is 9/16" thick then the overall length folded would be exactly 24.5", and since they do say the whole adapter is 1.3" thick ("adds 1.3 inches to length of pull") that seems about right. Plus the pack will probably take something "a little" longer than exactly the length of a PWS MK107 SBR. At any rate, a 14.5" barrel would obviously work from the terminal effectiveness standpoint out farther than I'm likely to ever be legally justified in a self-defense scenario.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leaveammoforme View Post
    I chronographed some random loads today out of a 7.5 inch 5.56. Barrel was 1-7 and melonited. Temp around 95 , barometer at almost 30, 900 ft ASL.

    Commercial 193 & 855 look alikes came in at an impressive 2400 FPS. Per program, that equals 2141 fps @100 and 1906 fps @ 200 yards.

    Most factory 223 ran around 2200 fps. Per program, that equals 1911 @ 100.

    I had some light 223 reloads that left at around 2100fps. Per program, that equals 1820 @ 100.

    Of course these velocities are way too low to expect normal yawing/expansion/frag/blah blah. But the 855 impressed me. I shot it out to 200 and then checked for keyholes, none. Up to 100 yards it would be around the same velocity as hitting someone at 375 with a 20 inch barrel. Not ideal but not something that is gonna bounce off a BG.
    Interesting data. According to some sources, MK 318 works down to about 2350 fps so probably not a good choice for a 7.5". Some of the TSX loads are said to work down to 1800 fps, although the BH 50gr one supposedly needs 2300 fps. At any rate, it seems I'd need special ammo for this application if I went with a 7.5" pistol but still wanted effectiveness out to 100 yards.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnacle Bill View Post
    By "the beltway" I don't mean DC. It's three more or less red states where even Dems who are electable to governor tend to be pro-gun (e.g. concealed carry passed in two of the states under Dem governors who got elected campaigning on passing concealed carry). However, the problem is the Federal NFA rules. You have to get ATF permesso in writing to take an NFA weapon across state lines and that would be a nightmare for a car gun given that e.g. the quickest driving time between certain destinations in the state I live in takes you across into one of the other states & back into mine, the airport is in one of the other states, etc...

    However, until you mentioned & I Googled it, I was unaware of the Law Tactical Folding stock adapter. It is possible that a carbine with a 14.5" barrel & permed A2X flash hider would fit in the Eberlestock pack. Their ad demonstrates it holding a PWS MK107 SBR, which per PWS has an overall length of 24.5". Taking a tape measure to a carbine I have with a 14.5" barrel & permed A2X flash hider, I get 23 - 15/16" from the front of the flash hider to the rear of the lower receiver where the adapter presumably attaches. I don't see the dimension in question on the Law Tactical site, but if the part of the adapter forward of the hinge is 9/16" thick then the overall length folded would be exactly 24.5", and since they do say the whole adapter is 1.3" thick ("adds 1.3 inches to length of pull") that seems about right. Plus the pack will probably take something "a little" longer than exactly the length of a PWS MK107 SBR. At any rate, a 14.5" barrel would obviously work from the terminal effectiveness standpoint out farther than I'm likely to ever be legally justified in a self-defense scenario.
    As I mentioned, the NFA is certainly a no-go in this situation. as it requires an approved 5320.20 for every trip across state lines.

    I measured my 10.5" SBR, folded it is exactly 20" from end to end including the A2 hider (NOT the A2X)

    Adding another 4" of barrel plus a pinned A2X is probably going to get you right under the 24.5" max if you absolutely have to use the Eberlestock pack in this situation.

    You'd then have no issue whatsoever regarding terminal effectiveness, and less concern (for me anyway) of rolling around with what LOOKS an awful lot like an unregistered SBR.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDE View Post
    I measured my 10.5" SBR, folded it is exactly 20" from end to end including the A2 hider (NOT the A2X)

    Adding another 4" of barrel plus a pinned A2X is probably going to get you right under the 24.5" max if you absolutely have to use the Eberlestock pack in this situation.
    Cool!

    It doesn't necessarily have to be the Eberlestock pack, but I want a pack (vs something that looks like a gym bag or something) because I'm protecting for the scenario of having to hoof it home, and it has the virtues of being designed to carry a weapon & has molle inside, but no molle or anything else "tactical" looking on the outside, plus I have a couple of their less stealthy products and they are very high quality and sturdy.

    How much experience do you have running your SBR with the folding adapter? No issues with misalignment of the buffer tube with the upper or anything?

  9. #29
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    Eberlestock makes a slightly larger version of the pack your referring to. It will fit a rem 700 with there folding stock and I beleive an 18-20 inch barrel IIRC. There are also quite a few manufacturers that make similar bags. I would go with the folding stock or one of the new pdw stocks, but if you decide to go the pistol route I would pick one of the 62-64 grain rounds. You should be able to get velocity of about 2400fps, and you have multiple options that will expand down to 1600-1800 fps.

    The nosler 64 bonded solid base expands down to 1600 fps. When I run my handloaded version through a ballistics program from a 16 inch barrel it will have some expansion out to just shy of 400 yards. Full expansion should happen out to about 300. This is not a hot load it falls within noslers data for 223 with cfe 223 powder. The 62 fusion or any of the tsx/ttsx bullets like the 55, 62, 50ttsx not the tsx loaded by bha. These should all do what you want out of the 7" barrel, and for sure if you go 14.5". Not all of them are available in factory loads but most are.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstone View Post
    Eberlestock makes a slightly larger version of the pack your referring to. It will fit a rem 700 with there folding stock and I beleive an 18-20 inch barrel IIRC. There are also quite a few manufacturers that make similar bags. I would go with the folding stock or one of the new pdw stocks, but if you decide to go the pistol route I would pick one of the 62-64 grain rounds. You should be able to get velocity of about 2400fps, and you have multiple options that will expand down to 1600-1800 fps.
    The S34 Secret Weapon pack is advertised as holding a 11" M4, which is to say 3.5 more inches of barrel than the PWS MK107. So, if a 14.5" with permed A2X & LAW folding adapter fits the S25, then yes a 16" or even 18" with the LAW folding adapter would fit the S34. However, the S34 is a much bigger & heavier pack (almost twice the weight empty, over twice the internal volume), and for blending in with the laptop bag toters the S25 is already pushing it. My laptop is a 17" gaming rig that weighs in at over 10 lbs and won't fit in packs designed for your more common/generic 17" business laptop, yet the biggest rod-like thing I could get diagonally into the pack that does fit my laptop would be about 22". So, the S25 must be at least a couple inches taller than the larger laptop packs, and the S34 must be a couple inches taller still. However, I have a couple of carbines with permed 14.5" barrels and I find them handy compared to the 16" (one of them was cut down from a factory 16"), so I just need the LAW adapter.

    Quote Originally Posted by jstone View Post
    The nosler 64 bonded solid base expands down to 1600 fps. When I run my handloaded version through a ballistics program from a 16 inch barrel it will have some expansion out to just shy of 400 yards. Full expansion should happen out to about 300. This is not a hot load it falls within noslers data for 223 with cfe 223 powder. The 62 fusion or any of the tsx/ttsx bullets like the 55, 62, 50ttsx not the tsx loaded by bha. These should all do what you want out of the 7" barrel, and for sure if you go 14.5". Not all of them are available in factory loads but most are.
    I think the 14.5" plus the LAW adapter looks like the optimum solution. I don't really even need a new weapon if I want to put the LAW on one of the ones I have, and then the ammo I use now should be fine. The 7" pistol with the brace sure looks cool, and probably a lot of fun at the range, but I think it would be a lot less useful in a real SHTF scenario than an M4gery that the LAW adapter will get into the pack.

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