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Thread: Interesting article by Army SOF on MK18 use

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Make sure to take the time to read Dano's comments in this thread. He is a known SME and expert on gear/guns and deployment of such (read not a mall ninja).



    C4
    I wasn't referring to what dano said. I respect what he says. It was purely sarcasm aimed at the comment i quoted.
    Last edited by Emtothedee; 07-21-14 at 16:51.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emtothedee View Post
    I wasn't referring to what dano said. I respect what he says.
    Gotcha. When you paint with a wide brush, it is hard to tell whom you are talking about.

    If you disagree with what someone has said as not being factual, speak up.



    C4

  3. #53
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    Commanders do not have the deal with ITAR. The military is exempt from ITAR. Individual soldiers modifying weapons and buying stuff to send overseas is not covered. Most of the Special Operations guys I dealt with overseas brought components with them or the weapons were already modded.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    The author is talking about rifles in a war zone, modified by guys who spend far more time studying how to win battles than what is the best free float tube for the AR. We at home, have the the luxury of spending hours online to find just the right part and complain when it takes more than three or four days for the Man in the Brown Shorts to bring it to our door. Delivery service isn't as reliable in theater, accessories and parts aren't always available through approved channels, commanders often limit what can be used and on top of that, they also have to deal with ITAR.

    It could be that the Surefire is a game changer, not because it's best choice, but it's good enough choice or finally available in enough quantities, that the advantages of using a short rifle are suddenly attractive. Some look at the rifles pictured in the article and see clown shoes. If authentic, and I have no reason to believe they are not, what we are really seeing the current American warfighter continuing the long held tradition of using worn out, less than ideal equipment to get the job done



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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    Didn't ask for nor self anoint "SME" However do have a couple merit badges people atb enamored with. Most willing to play a pick up game with all comers on a square range, but critical judgements based on the 8+ yrs deployed on the two way... and formal RDTE in between.

    Opins like arse holes and good luck separating the wheat from chaff w/o relevant experience. I do not feel that article is demonstrative of sound gear, ideas, or representative of current TTP realities in the war zone, or shows how solid operators set up their equipment.

    The persons I know with ridiculous amounts of experience use a 14.5 or 16" carbine with a vari-opic with mil-based holdovers... for increased lethality, smaller CEP at unk ranges, smashing baddies at distance with clip on VAS and being relevant when the sun comes up.

    Most walk around with their shorties cause it looks cool on the FOB and is more convenient. A discerning eye can sort someone out in seconds... by the manner of their equipment.

    The only rail systems I have seen pass drop & torque testing are DD, KAC, Geisselle, Remington MilGroup and OEM HK. I have seen three pictured in that article fail.

    The "m4A1" with "3-8" optic picture is clearly not an M4a1. None standard upper slapped on gov lower. Note Noveske marked upper receiver, thick fluted barrel and length. The optic atb POS luepy mk4 with extended target turrets. The MK6 3-18, or NF 2.5-10x are much, much better optics.

    Picturing a carbine, actually a Larue upper, "set up for the long range fight"...1) the optic is riding too far back for proper eye relief 2) the top rail has light/laser switch on it preventing use of a clip on 3) the laser at 12 will prevent clip on use 4) riding a legacy KAC suppressor is odd &/or ill informed. The old KAC CQD suppressors have massive and inconsistent zero shift. Do note they are ridiculously robust and can even be run on a MK46/SAW. If issued a surefire it is a much better choice for precision. Do note, the new KAC cans with twist collar have shown reliable and repeatable zero shift.

    Having an insight WML blocking the illum of the LA-5(ATPIAL) is odd.

    Elcan 1-4x (zero shifting POS) reticle based on 14.5" m855. Odd choice IMO for a shorty. The newer (and even bulkier) 1.5-6x Elcan ATB better but nor issue free

    The drop #'s alone do not tell the tale of massive lose of efficacy on targets, but posting RemV/RemE would be to much hassle. When you start having poor effects by defacto throwing 22magnums.. doesn't make sense.
    100m zero
    14.5" m855 200m-1.6", 300-5", 400-8" , 500- 13", 600-18", 700-25", 800-32", 900-42",1000-52"
    10" m855 62gr 200m-2", 300-6", 400m-10", 500-16", 600-23", 700-31", 800-41", 900-52", 1000-65"

    14.5" 77gr 200m-.6mil/2", 300-1.5/6", 400-2.7/10", 500-4.0/15", 600-5.6/20", 700-7.5/27", 800-9.6/35", 900-12.2/44", 1000-15.2/55"
    10.3" 77gr 200m- .8mil/3", 300-2.0/7", 400-3.4/12", 500-5/18", 600-7.0/25", 700-9.3/34", 800-12.0/43", 900-15.2/55", 1000-18.7/68"
    drops from actual crony data with a nominal 4k elevation

    Have the best day ever!
    I guess what it comes down to is the fact that it doesn't matter what you think about the current realities and TTP's of the current warzone. You're not there. You have absolutely no clue what this guy is seeing on a day to day basis. You're in America on a cell phone or keyboard. He's taking pictures of weapons at his feet in a war zone. The fact that he is still typing means he's doing something right. I have a few badges and patches myself, even got the tattoos and a few ASI's. It really doesn't mean anything. The face that I spent a few years in Iraq doesn't make me I can even begin to fathom what is going on in the ever evolving battlefield where he is right now. The fact that you are judging someone's operational ability based upon their rail selection or where they place their accessories is pretty ridiculous. It's an immediate red flag to me. That's the whole point of SOF and SOCOM. It's the Indian. Maybe that's what works for him? Just because it doesn't pass your internet drop test it means he's less than solid soldier? That's absurd and I'm quite surprised I'm the only one to pick up on that.

    I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.

    I hope this doesn't get edited by a moderator, because it needs to be read and understood.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    The stuff has to hold up. I don't want to put words in Dano's mouth, but some of those match gay tubes are designed for flitting around a bunch of barrels... not a war zone.
    That's what I meant about reliability. Maybe should have also wrote "durability" to be more clear.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutchris View Post
    I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.
    Good stuff. I have availed myself of the opportunities to speak with the SOF guys as to why they have their (specific) junk, why they wear it where and how they wear it, etc. I recognize that a veteran of a firefight is a veteran of a firefight, but I also recognize that they tend have more deployments with different missions and have developed a sense of what worked well vice what did not. Some ideas I adopted, some not, but all the points were valid and cogent.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    Visibly pictured are High Drag Low Speed collages of crap not capable of 24/7 cycle of operations. SOCOM has approximately 66,000 assigned.... However, the number of people with breadth and depth of experience to really do things well, fast, in any condition.. only number in the hundreds. Lots of room for silly badges and clownshoes. Clearly demonstrated by altering robust and reliable issued gear to be cool and "special".
    Which, not to get to off track, brings up the relevant question of exactly what is SOCOM?

    What is the taxonomy of that 66,000 person group?
    Seals, delta, intelligence, Air Force etc.
    Last edited by Amur; 07-21-14 at 21:00.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Commanders do not have the deal with ITAR. The military is exempt from ITAR. Individual soldiers modifying weapons and buying stuff to send overseas is not covered. Most of the Special Operations guys I dealt with overseas brought components with them or the weapons were already modded.
    When I was talking about ITAR, I meant the soldiers trying to get stuff outside their regular supply channels
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutchris View Post
    I won't clutter the net with personal stories of the crazy things I have seen perform well in combat(Weaver Optics on an M4, etc...) or what gear setups I saw that I felt looked ridiculous(I usually carried 4-5 mags on a dismounted patrol, my team leader carried 15. Literally.) The point is that it's what worked for him. It's getting the job done. And judging someone's performance capabilities based upon their gear choice is exactly the opposite of the attitude that SOF looks for. It is the complete opposite way of thinking. It's flat out wrong, and anyone with a hint of experience in an ODA or Team can attest to that.

    I hope this doesn't get edited by a moderator, because it needs to be read and understood.
    Maybe.

    I have seen a lot of teen age girls texting while driving. Does that mean it is a safe and responsible activity?

    Just because it worked once or twice or how ever many times does not mean good to go.

    In at least two of the pictured setup the rails used were designed from the get go for ease of installation. Clamping to standard barrel nuts was the primary design consideration. I have used both of those rails and both rail designs were in no way as solid or as durable as something like the Geissele.

    Mounting laser aiming devices on such rails is, simply, clownshoes.
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  10. #60
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    Here's Dano's reply to my PM asking him what his MOS was or what team he served with:


    Post another PM from an SME and you're gone.
    Last edited by Failure2Stop; 07-22-14 at 09:57. Reason: Posting PM from SME

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