Counterfactual: The US Army Adopts The M42 .45 Uzi SMG As The M3 In Early 1942...

[SteyrAUG]

How does this change the war with the Uzi being adopted as the M3 and put into service as early as mid 1942. Marines in the Pacific now have wooden stock Uzis (caliber .45) rather than Reisings, M1 Thompsons or Grease Guns.

On D-Day troops who would have normally carried a Thompson now carry an Uzi. Tank crews and the like in Europe are issued the .45 Uzi rather than the Grease Gun.

Obviously the M1 Garand would have been the primary issue weapon in most theaters, but would a more compact SMG with a far more reliable magazine made a dramatic difference? I think it would have been more of a "game changer" in the Pacific (especially considering the Japanese really didn't have a SMG) than in Europe.

[Eurodriver]

No.

Reason:

The US Army and USMC already had Grease Guns and Thompsons. Both were reliable enough that a more reliable weapon in the same caliber with the same capabilities and in the same numbers would not have made a big difference.

You want counterfactual, discuss Germany's standard issue rifle is the STG44 in 1939 or standard fighter aircraft is the ME262 in 1939. Those would have been true "game changers". I fail to see how the uzi is significantly different enough from what was already issued to even make it as a blip in the history books.

[SteyrAUG]

No.

Reason:

The US Army and USMC already had Grease Guns and Thompsons. Both were reliable enough that a more reliable weapon in the same caliber with the same capabilities and in the same numbers would not have made a big difference.

You want counterfactual, discuss Germany's standard issue rifle is the STG44 in 1939 or standard fighter aircraft is the ME262 in 1939. Those would have been true "game changers". I fail to see how the uzi is significantly different enough from what was already issued to even make it as a blip in the history books.

In THIS counterfactual the Grease Gun does NOT exist and the M3 is actually the Uzi. And if you don't appreciate the difference between a .45 Uzi and a M1 Thompson (especially when it comes to reliable magazines and overall weight) then there isn't much to be said.

Stg45s and Me262s early on has already been done to death. The result is of course nuclear Berlin as originally intended.

[Eurodriver]

And if you don't appreciate the difference between a .45 Uzi and a M1 Thompson (especially when it comes to reliable magazines and overall weight) then there isn't much to be said.

I sure don't. Debating the merits of a reliable 7.7lb .45 SMG and a relatively reliable 10.6lb .45 SMG seems so meticulous...well...I'm just glad this forum is full of gun people.

[grunz]

Zero impact. Zero, zilch, nada, nothing...

Are you seriously asking us to quantify the impact ON WW2 of slightly improved short range weapons, issued to VERY small number of troops many of which are support guys or tankers who have bigger guns to kill with...

Its kind of like asking to quantify the impact of Glocks being issued vs the M9 as the US sidearm in the context the Iraq and Afgan wars - totally irrelevant.

This is just a dumb proposition, now its up to you to take a deep breath and admit that - and move on, or you can continue digging in because you are emotionally invested.

[SteyrAUG]

I sure don't. Debating the merits of a reliable 7.7lb .45 SMG and a relatively reliable 10.6lb .45 SMG seems so meticulous...well...I'm just glad this forum is full of gun people.

Well in the nicest way I know how to say it, because I like you and all that, those "gun people" would be the first ones to tell you about all the significant differences between the Uzi and the Thompson. And that is why the Uzi pretty much eclipsed every existing SMG when it came out in more or less the same way the MP5 replaced the Uzi across the board years later.

But let's try not to get sideways over a counterfactual, it's not as important as say a discussion on Kurosawa films.

[SteyrAUG]

Zero impact. Zero, zilch, nada, nothing...

Are you seriously asking us to quantify the impact ON WW2 of slightly improved short range weapons, issued to VERY small number of troops many of which are support guys or tankers who have bigger guns to kill with...

Its kind of like asking to quantify the impact of Glocks being issued vs the M9 as the US sidearm in the context the Iraq and Afgan wars - totally irrelevant.

This is just a dumb proposition, now its up to you to take a deep breath and admit that - and move on, or you can continue digging in because you are emotionally invested.

Yes, I was asking what difference it would have made (if any). I don't think it would have changed outcomes because things as revolutionary as the Stg45 and Me262 failed to change an "outcome."

But just as those things didn't change the war, they did have an impact on the war in some theaters. And I'm just pondering if a .45 Uzi on crappy little Pacific islands fighting the Japanese in jungle campaigns might have had a similar impact with the guys carrying Thompsons and Reisings.

I'm not imagining a scenario where we decide we can take Berlin before the Russians get there simply because we have Uzis.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I just wished I could take a Conex container full of Kalashnikovs, PKMs, RPGs, mags, and ammo to the Alamo.

[Sensei]

Zero impact. Zero, zilch, nada, nothing...

Are you seriously asking us to quantify the impact ON WW2 of slightly improved short range weapons, issued to VERY small number of troops many of which are support guys or tankers who have bigger guns to kill with...

Its kind of like asking to quantify the impact of Glocks being issued vs the M9 as the US sidearm in the context the Iraq and Afgan wars - totally irrelevant.

This is just a dumb proposition, now its up to you to take a deep breath and admit that - and move on, or you can continue digging in because you are emotionally invested.

I agree that it would have zero effect.

[Sensei]

I just wished I could take a Conex container full of Kalashnikovs, PKMs, RPGs, mags, and ammo to the Alamo.

You may someday get your chance the way this country is devolving.