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Thread: Hodge Defense--Best Carbine money can buy?

  1. #111
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    I feel like if a lesser member made the same initial post on this forum they would be torn apart for it.

    Any time "fit and finish" is mentioned on here the seasoned members always cut into them about 'fit and finish don't matter, how did it shoot?' Type of reply.

    To me I see a pretty basic. edit to add, upon further research I do find it overpriced, I take back my previous comment of it not beingBut unfortunately your post about this gun is unable to convey what these differences really are that set it apart. Neither the description or pictures convey this. I would be interested in what these differences really are? With something like an SR15 there are obvious visual and technical differences, the bolt being a big one. Or companies that come out with their own rails or other proprietary or original parts. I guess while I want to see the innovation here it is lost on me.

    The 1911 one is tough for me too. Are you implying that many if not all of the parts are hand fit and it endless hours to not assemble, but 'craft' this gun? Are there aspects of this gun that took a smith many many years of practice and experience to be able to do? Again attention to detail in an AR would simply mean to me taking a little extra time to not be sloppy in putting it together, like say an extra 90 minutes tops.

    If big names are going to endorse this product I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I see one myself. I also look forward to future offerings that are upcoming that there is some indication will have new innovative features. But for one I have to say I'm just not as impressed as you seem to be, it looks like another gun assembled of quality parts, of which there are no shortage of in this market.
    Last edited by TMS951; 08-22-14 at 13:06.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanCrothers View Post
    How is that in any way my problem as a potential customer? Did I say they were marking up their goods for no reason? Nope. It just so happens that the collaboration of parts they are offering at the price they are offering them come in at a higher price than what a home builder could produce a similar rifle for. Are we supposed to give companies passes because of their overhead and any other associated costs forcing them to charge a higher margin? Everybody has to make a living, but at the same time every company also has to decide what options they offer on their product are financially feasible and at what price point they can balance costs and profitability. For someone who can't buy these parts and build the rifle this isn't a bad option. For someone who can it doesn't make any sense to buy their product.

    The fact is yes I can build an almost identical rifle for cheaper. Nothing at all disingenuous about that. Could I build a stable of them incurring the same costs that this company does and build them for cheaper? No. You do see the difference here right? It's the entire point of the argument. Their overhead means nothing to me as an unbiased customer.
    Ok. Whatever. I'm not going to argue if you think the average home built rifle is the same as a factory built rifle. Most people don't have the proper tools and gear, workspace, and knowledge to do things correctly. If you do, then rock on. You're in the minority.

    As far as giving companies a pass because they're in the business of manufacturing and selling weapons, at a higher price than what some random home builder on the internet says, is ridiculous. Too many people think it's their job to get on these forums and beat on companies for trying to sell a product. Don't like the price? Then don't buy it. Some of the posts in this thread are clownshoes and shows the difference of M4C circa 2014 versus the M4C of even a few years ago.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinlessorrow View Post
    The issue here is that the same mods who generaly beat down new users, and lock their threads over fit and finish, are ow the same ones who are now saying this is the best rifle money can buy due to its fit and finish.

    It's just a basic rifle with off the shelf parts with great fit and finish. Tell me you don't see why everyone is acting like they are?

    If this was posted by anyone who was not a mod.....or hell even a new user the thread would have been locked after a lengthy insult from a mod about how fit and finish is crap and doesn't matter. It has happened way to often here.

    I did get a laugh of the pic with jessie james.......just not a fan of overly fake plastic porn stars who are well used.
    Oh I know, I didn't have you in mind. Always like you input in topics.
    Then why did you reply to my post the way you did, when I specifically mentioned M4Guru, after DWood requested feedback from actual owners?

    As for your first post, there is quality focused, and then there is just plain snobbery. How many here are criticizing this rifle because it does not include their particular favorite brand part X and part Y, without even having seen it?
    A statement was made that it was an unknown in the industry. Sure, but that does not mean it is not up to par.

    I think a lot of people would be well served by not judging to quickly, and rather welcoming new products and hoping that they succeed. If the default reaction is to always refer to what is currently regarded as the "best", people are too set in their ways, to be honest. And splitting hairs on the thread title really shows that people only want to comment, rather than actually having something to say.

    I have not handled the rifle, but I have read comments from users here and on LF whose opinions I respect and heed, and it does seem to hold up to scrutiny.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  4. #114
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    DWood,

    Per your request, I'll do what I can with regards to what I've witnessed observing Jim completing my rifle and our discussion:

    Per our discussion, Jim designed his upper with tighter tolerances and the 14.5" Daniel Defense CHF barrel required a "thermal" fit in order to mate with the upper. Jim heated the upper receiver in order to insert the barrel receiver extension. This reminded me of the BCM upper receiver that was produced recently with tighter tolerances. Picatinny rails on the upper were machined with "scallops" that were clean and well executed. I personally had not seen that before in an upper receiver.

    Barrel was installed and torqued within Geissele's specs and dimpled on the drill press for installing a Geissele Super Gas Block and a stainless gas tube. The gas block was drilled and pinned on the same press using a jig that consisted of an aluminum receiver extension vise block and a vise mounted together on a base. The block had the capability to allow the barrel receiver extension to be inserted in either a vertical or horizontal position and the vise held the gas block. Jim then drilled the gas block and barrel to pin the gas block.

    Jim utilized a 13" Geissele MK2 rail. Nothing unique with the rails installation that stood out to me. The upper receiver to lower receiver were also designed with tighter tolerances and mated together with what I would describe as a "snug" fit with no side-to-side rocking.

    Jim used stainless roll pins for installing the Magpul trigger guard, forward assist and bolt release. Take down pins were a few thousands longer and dished, similar to Noveske pins I've seen. Springs were sourced from another vendor that was not specifically named and "appeared" to have a different appearance under the lighting of Jim's shop in comparison to the lower parts kits I've used in the past: Daniel Defense, Colt, G&R Tactical, Brownells, PSA... At least enough for me to make a mental remark of it. Although that could mean nothing.

    The interesting thing is the lower was machined to allow for a 7.62 bolt catch which was installed in my lower. Tool steel fire selector and forward assist built by Badger Ordnance, I believe, and an ALG QMS fire control group that I requested was installed, lubed and greased.

    Magazine release and bolt catch did not appear to be tool steel. I requested and brought along a BCM Gunfighter Mod 3 grip but the grip's "trigger guard" extension had issues mating with the Magpul trigger guard so we opted to use a Magpul grip with the similar angle of the BCM.

    Buffer tube appears to be standard Mil-Spec, extruded and machined aluminum. The enhanced bolt and bolt carrier are Daniel Defense, BCM Gunfighter charging handle and Magpul CTR stock with the enhanced rubber butt pad (I swapped with an STR off of my BCM rifle once I got home.)

    Jim also pinned and welded a SpecWar Trifecta mount I brought along with me for my suppressor.

    I've only had 200 rounds through the weapon since I picked it up last week. No malfunctions with Winchester 55 gr. and 75 gr. Hornady TAP. I really like the balance of the 14" Hodge rifle over my usual 16" rifles and I can see why that seems to be a reoccurring comment from folks. I plan on using this rifle in two courses in the Fall, once the weather cools down here in Texas and fully expect this to be my "go-to" rifle.

    I hope this adds value to the discussion. If not, hell I'll stick to my "2006 and under 30 posts" strategy. Can you build and support a rifle similar on your own? Probably. But you have to be honest in your assessment of time, materials, sourcing and shipping when you forecast your own estimates to see if the value is really there for your needs and your analysis.

    Thanks for reading.

    Bryanr

    Quick Addendum

    MistWolf made a reference to how a fire selector is made to "run smoothly and positively without slop" which struck the same impression with me on the Hodge rifles as well. His comment just reminded me of that.
    Last edited by bryanr; 08-22-14 at 13:00.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    And splitting hairs on the thread title really shows that people only want to comment, rather than actually having something to say.
    Judging a product on the very title of its introduction, which features a broad and absolute statement that it is THE best, is hardly splitting hairs.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoutfsu99 View Post
    Try building that rifle on a Tuesday night for less money when you're paying things like the FET, wages, the light bill, and 20 other different things. Saying you can build something for less money is disingenuous and outright silly when you look at factors other than building it on your kitchen table.
    Basic economics 101, if you can not produce a product at a competitive price you are either not building it right, or there is no place for it in the market.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasjim View Post
    Hi guys... Jim Hodge here.
    To the spec:
    16" CHF, 1/7, CL, pinned mid gas barrel
    158 and sometimes 9310 bolts, all shot peened, and MP tested with M16 carriers
    Geissele SMR handguard
    Tight side of mil-spec upper and lower receivers
    ALG hammer and trigger
    Bar stock reversible selector (not investment cast)
    Bar Stock F/A (not investment cast)
    Enhanced pivot and take down pins
    Impact extruded receiver ext
    Enhanced bolt stop
    H buffer with tuned spring
    Magpul MOE+ grip! and CTR stock with enhanced butt pad
    Gunfighter CH
    SS roll pins, not spring pins

    From a manufacturing process....
    Each rifle is assembled from start to finish by one person. Great pride and care goes into each build, as once a sub assembly is finished, two other sets of eyes are providing QC before the next portion is started. Often times our uppers require a thermal fit before final torque of the barrel nut. Proper staking, as well as alignment of rec-ext we go crazy over. The rifles are then fired and cleaned before packaging.

    As for feedback from professional end users, just ask around. It is not my place to single any individual or team out out of respect.

    No it's not an inexpensive carbine, nor will I apologize or belittle anyone on justification for the value. It's an expensive gun to build pure and simple. Parts, labor, shipping, FET, etc... It all adds up. I appreciate, and get why guys favor one brand over another, hell I have 6 KACs, handful of Jonny's guns, and a crap ton of Colts. I see the merits and faults in all. Not trying to sell you on my brand, cause it is not for everyone, but if your in the market I would appreciate an honest look.

    If you have any questions, please call anytime, and I will do my best to accommodate.

    Cheers,
    Jim Hodge
    For those of you that stated this thread lack any details...Hodge posted the detail to the thread.

    Here is a breakdown of parts that few of you are so focused on...

    16" CHF, 1/7, CL, pinned mid gas barrel
    158 and sometimes 9310 bolts, all shot peened, and MP tested with M16 carriers----
    Geissele SMR handguard
    Tight side of mil-spec upper and lower receivers--
    ALG hammer and trigger---plus a lower parts kit
    Impact extruded receiver ext
    H buffer with tuned spring
    Magpul MOE+ grip! and CTR stock with enhanced butt pad
    Gunfighter CH

    Just the major components will be in the 1300s based on the pricing pull from the BCM web site.

    Hodge invested in his own forging which can be extremely expensive for a startup company, but he believes in his ideas and his capability to turn out a quality product that anyone can appreciate.

    That is not counting the small parts that make up the attention to detail part of this post. Like what M4Guru posted, every pin, spring is carefully selected and meticulously put together.
    SS roll pins, not spring pins
    Bar stock reversible selector (not investment cast)
    Bar Stock F/A (not investment cast)
    Enhanced pivot and take down pins
    Enhanced bolt stop

    you would add all the small parts that could add up to a 1500.00 build easily. you would have to pay for FET and also make a profit for yourself. adding profit margin for your dealer..so i would say the 2000.00 price tag isn't that extreme for a gun build by a master M4 builder that does every one from start to finish and his OCD style of selecting parts to fit a carbine together is second to none.

    I used the anaology tthat comparing a Hodge to a quality BCM is like comparing a 911 Turbo S to a GTR, so another way to look at this would be compare a Rolex to a Casio...why would you buy a rolex when a Casio can do exactly the same thing for 600% less cost?

    For those that can appreicated the detail, the fine workmanship, and quality of a product, you will likely appreicate the Hodge rifle. I for one can only afford a GTR so i will still cruise down the street pulling sub 3 second 0-60 launches with the launch control and smiling at the 911 Turbo S driver while i am neck to neck with him......but when i could afford a 911 turbo S...I would definitely jump on that train....

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by dentron View Post
    Judging a product on the very title of its introduction, which features a broad and absolute statement that it is THE best, is hardly splitting hairs.
    Hardly an absolute statement, considering the fact that the thread title was ended with a question mark.....but hey, read into that what you want.
    Last edited by Arctic1; 08-22-14 at 13:11.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by dentron View Post
    Judging a product on the very title of its introduction, which features a broad and absolute statement that it is THE best, is hardly splitting hairs.
    I don't think the owner of the company ever once said he built "the best carbine." That was mentioned in the title of the thread by SMGLee with a question mark at the end of it. I don't think that was a definitive statement hence the question mark. This thread is ridiculous at this point. Once again, if you don't like the rifle, don't buy it. It seems pretty simple to me. I completely understand why so many people have left this forum. The jackassery is at a new level.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    Then why did you reply to my post the way you did, when I specifically mentioned M4Guru, after DWood requested feedback from actual owners?

    As for your first post, there is quality focused, and then there is just plain snobbery. How many here are criticizing this rifle because it does not include their particular favorite brand part X and part Y, without even having seen it?
    A statement was made that it was an unknown in the industry. Sure, but that does not mean it is not up to par.

    I think a lot of people would be well served by not judging to quickly, and rather welcoming new products and hoping that they succeed. If the default reaction is to always refer to what is currently regarded as the "best", people are too set in their ways, to be honest. And splitting hairs on the thread title really shows that people only want to comment, rather than actually having something to say.

    I have not handled the rifle, but I have read comments from users here and on LF whose opinions I respect and heed, and it does seem to hold up to scrutiny.
    I think I misquoted you.....I coulda sworn the post I quoted said something different....my bad.

    I'm sure the rifle is of great quality, but the original post had it come from anyone ther than who it did, wel....it would have been nuked from orbit by the mods here and then they would dance on the rubble.
    Last edited by sinlessorrow; 08-22-14 at 13:22.
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

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