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Thread: Hodge Defense--Best Carbine money can buy?

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
    Note to self;

    Self, if you ever want to promote an AR, DO NOT, under any circumstances, use the words "Best Carbine Money Can Buy" in the thread title.

    Seriously, the thread title just begs for a huge beat-down. Had the OP titled the thread "New AR Manufacturer" or "Nice New AR", this thread would have turned out completely differently.

    And FWIW, the AR in question does nothing for me. Hand fitting parts means nothing with the AR platform. It was designed from the start to be mass manufactured, designed so that hand fitting means absolutely bupkiss, and is completely un-necessary.

    I'll stick with my BCM Jack Carbine.
    What is funny is that people have completely different reactions to things. When I hear someone (that I respect) say "best (insert car, watch, gun, ammo, trainer, etc)" I am ALL EARS! My thinking is that I might just learn something new and grow from it. Funny thing is that most people do not think this way. Why? Because they are MARRIED to their purchase.

    I don't think anyone asked you to sell your HSP Jack. Great gun, but not perfect by any stretch.

    General armorers and enthusiasts look at the AR as a ball of parts that can be slapped together. Paying attention to torque, trueness, fitting of components without binding, etc has value to people that know better. I am one of those people.


    YMMV.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-26-14 at 21:14.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    What is funny is that people have completely different reactions to things. When I hear someone (that I respect) say "best (insert car, watch, gun, ammo, trainer, etc)" I am ALL EARS! My thinking is that I might just learning something new and grow from it. Funny thing is that most people do not think this way. Why? Because they are MARRIED to their purchase.

    I don't think anyone asked you to sell your HSP Jack. Great gun, but not perfect by any stretch.

    General armorers and enthusiasts look at the AR as a ball of parts that can be slapped together. Paying attention to torque, trueness, fitting of components without binding, etc has value to people that know better. I am one of those people.


    YMMV.



    C4
    I am a FNG here, but I have been around a while and I agree with you Grant. The people who know better, don't have to argue or sell anyone on any particular thing. Having an open mind goes a long way. I hope HD does well and becomes another successful manufacturer that brings a great product to market. For those who are think his guns are too high, they always have OLY Arms, DMPS, Shrubmaster and RRA to fall back on.
    Certified AR Armorer among many other things.
    Semper Paratus Arms - 2014

  3. #323
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    What I find most amazing and baffling is that many of this self-proclaimed detail oriented crowd seems to totally and completely fail to observe this ever so crucial detail and as such lacks ability to pay real attention to detail when it interferes with the apparent need to share their opinions:

    The OP was posted with a clear and not to misread QUESTION MARK

    AGAIN: IT WAS POSTED AS: BEST CARBINE MONEY CAN BUY ? (THAT IS A QUESTION MARK AT THE END THERE, GENTS...!!!!!!)

    Really. Enough already.
    Per Ardua ad Astra.
    STS - gone but not forgotten.

  4. #324
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by polydeuces View Post
    What I find most amazing and baffling is that many of this self-proclaimed detail oriented crowd seems to totally and completely fail to observe this ever so crucial detail and as such lacks ability to pay real attention to detail when it interferes with the apparent need to share their opinions:
    The OP was posted with a clear and not to misread QUESTION MARK
    AGAIN: IT WAS POSTED AS: BEST CARBINE MONEY CAN BUY ? (THAT IS A QUESTION MARK AT THE END THERE, GENTS...!!!!!!)
    Really. Enough already.
    Maybe they didn't fail to observe was what he said in the body of the post.
    "Price is something you have to justify to yourself, but if you are in the market for a high end carbine, if you want the best, look no further than the HDS AU-Mod1…. It is a choice carbine."

    Bill Tidler Jr.
    **************

    ...We have long maintained that the only accessories that a 1911 needs are a trigger you can manage, sights that you can see, and a dehorning job. That still goes.
    ~Jeff Cooper

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryantx23 View Post
    For those who are think his guns are too high, they always have OLY Arms, DMPS, Shrubmaster and RRA to fall back on.
    Now that's just stupid. Not a single person in this thread has suggested this rifle is any where near or comparable to that level of crap (except you, just now). Asking what Hodge brings to the table over the common staples (BCM, DD, Colt, etc. etc.) is a fair question, and one that was answered and reasonably justified.

  6. #326
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    I saw this thread when it first came out and ignored it because I thought it would be ignored. 17 pages later...
    Ken Bloxton
    Skill > Gear

  7. #327
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    So I've been following this thread and a thought came to mind: "Threads like these need Army Chief." I really miss his balanced, well-thought-out advice and nuanced approach. I'm sure he would've chimed in at some point during this whole mess and got all of us to pause and think.

    RIP Chief.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinyCrumb View Post
    Common man.

    Let's start with Rolex being a company that's over 100 years old. That alone has given them ample time to build the reputation they have. I'm not aware of Hodge Defense having a 100+ year reputation.

    During that 100+ year timeline, they have brought countless innovations to market. They hold hundreds of patents for those designs. They spend tens of millions on R&D. They design & manufacture everything they produce in house, including ridiculously precise movements that are their own invention. They're consistently held accountable by independent parties and continue to win awards on all aspects of their company. Oh, and then there's this little thing that they've produced upwards of 50 million timepieces to date that have been and continue to be relied on in some of the world's toughest environments.

    They've also managed to build one of the world's most powerful brands. They employ thousands of people worldwide, not counting the countless others employed through their influence or market.

    You don't buy a Rolex for "fit and finish". You buy a Rolex because:

    1. It's one of the most historically significant companies in the world of horology. You're buying a piece of history.
    2. They have a 100+ year reputation of producing timepieces that have withstood the harshest conditions.
    3. Their reliability, design and durability have been documented and proven for over a century.
    4. Their precision and accuracy are independently verifiable and only matched by a handful of companies.
    5. They have unique patented designs and movements that cannot be reproduced (legally).
    6. Given their reputation, you have faith they'll be around for another 100 years to service it for as long as you can possibly own it.
    7. They increase in value over time, making them a good investment and/or heirloom.

    I could go on. But do I need to?

    I'm sure it's a fine rifle. I know I'd love to shoot one. But really, comparing it to global brands that have been around for decades, create entire economies, have brought countless innovations to market, etc…*is just disingenuous at best. It's a really poor analogy.
    Rolex movements aren't all that precise. I have a $140 Orient running within COSC spec at +3secs/day, and 2 other Seiko's that also fall within COSC spec. Their movement accuracy isn't anything special, by any means.

    Omega also designed the co-axial movement and puts it in watches costing half the price of the average Rolex.

    Most $400-500 Steinharts and Seiko's will match a Rolex in accuracy, durability, and where they'll safely go... they also cost 1,000-2,000% less.

    So going off of your bullet points above, like "5. They have unique patented designs and movements that cannot be reproduced (legally)."... if Hodge slaps a patent on something (anything, according to your standards) their price tag becomes more justifiable all of a sudden?

    I am far from Hodge's target client, but who gives a crap if they're more expensive than "X" or not?

    If you looks at their price tag in the way that some people claim to shoot ammo on here, you're talking about the difference of a few weekends at the range to get "this" vs "that".

    It's a premium product marketed to someone who wants something "nice". Why even bother getting worked up over the price? If you didn't want a Ferarri, would you still bitch about what they cost?

  9. #329
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    Hodge Defense--Best Carbine money can buy?

    This afternoon, upon invitation, I had just short of an hour long phone conversation with Jim Hodge during which we discussed past and current AR market trends, innovation versus adaptation and also during which I hit him with the hard questions. I have to say that while I entered the conversation skeptical and with a list of questions I doubted Jim would be able to answer to my satisfaction I actually came out impressed; which was pleasantly surprising for me because it doesn't happen very often.

    My skepticism is a learned behavior rooted in my experience with companies claiming "innovation" where no innovation can be readily recognized or vague mentions of some type of covert, black, can't talk about it activities or some sort of industry insider knowledge only available to an elite few. This thread had it all, although none claimed by Jim personally, and it also had a title line claiming "the best carbine money can buy!!!"

    My BS meter was solidly pegged on red.

    It's unfortunate that I've had to become that way but through years of experience seeing guys pimp their wares claiming "OMG Black Ops" experience only to later be outed as frauds, or claiming innovation when it's obvious that the only innovation to be found is in their "creative marketing" materials I've found myself hardened to such claims to the point of, well, skepticism.

    It's a good thing and a bad thing.

    It's taught me that a guy can have all the field experience in the world but if he can't build a gun he can't build a gun. It's that simple. Ultra Code Black Operator doesn't necessarily equate to knowledgable and capable gun builder.

    Actual innovation, while claimed by just about every company out there trying to carve a niche in a niche filled market is rare, much the same as meeting an actual Navy SEAL is a rare occurrence while every bona fide real life SEAL has no less than 300 fake SEALs riding his image, pumping hands in public while wearing unearned ill-arranged medals, grinning at and glad handing the easily impressed civies who buy their lies hook line and sinker, stealing valor and attempting to profit from all of it. I'm talking about the bar room SEALs spinning webs of lies to the awe of some poor star struck teenage girl. Some (most) of which have become so intrenched in their lies that they actually have mentally evolved to the point where they believe their lies, defend their lies even in the face of being outted as frauds through reams of real documentation and take their lies to their graves.

    It all makes me sick.

    Companies claiming innovation when all they're doing is making singular, easily un-noticed and equally un-necessary adaptations to existing products and hyping them as "The New Must Have!!! OMG Guys You Gotta Get This Or Your Crap Is Crap" or as a "Game Changa!!!" make me sick also.

    But I digress.

    What became quickly apparent to me was that Jim does not fit into any of the mental molds that I've formed and it was also apparent pretty much from the get go that we were going to get along because we have very similar thoughts and ideals on the utility and proper assembly of a capable, functional and reliable AR-15 weapons platform.

    It's about the fit as much as it is about the components.

    While I can't vouch for or verify any of Jim's "Operator" expertise I can say that he didn't start cramming it down my throat which is a good indication that he is likely the real thing. Whatever that real thing might be. I may have never been an operator level guy but I do have a military background and I can spot a bullshitter a mile away. Jim does not come across as a bullshitter; quite the opposite actually.

    I can however vouch for his role (roles) in innovating the AR (and other weapons) market. It is very likely that you own a product Jim had a hand in designing. He doesn't brag about it or advertise it which to me is very respectable but the fact remains, many of the items you have installed on or strapped to your AR probably have Jim's fingerprints on them.

    That's a pretty big claim you're making there TXARGUY! Well, I know but Jim and I share way too many mutual industry friends, one of which I called after Jim and I hung up. I asked this friend about Jim and proceeded to hear pretty much the same stuff Jim told me repeated; this time out of the mouth of someone I know and trust.

    I'm not by any means "drinking the Hodge Kool-aid" but I am for once interested in tasting the Kool-Aid.

    I am very much looking forward to my next work trip to San Antonio and a visit to Jim's shop.

    My interest is peaked so much that I may just plan a special trip on my rare off-time just for a quick Hodge Defense Systems visit.

    Jim, if you're reading this it was a pleasure. Let's stay in touch. Just keep a Coke cold for me.
    Last edited by TXARGUY; 08-26-14 at 23:30. Reason: auto-correct spelling of the name 'Hodge'. Damn thing changed it to Hogue.
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  10. #330
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    delete…wrong thread
    Last edited by LoveAR; 08-26-14 at 23:26.

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