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Thread: AAR (sort of). LE classes vs Open Enrollment classes

  1. #1
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    AAR (sort of). LE classes vs Open Enrollment classes

    I'm an "adequate" shooter (which I realize on this board means different things), but I can typically hold my own at most open enrollment classes that I've attended and I'm usually considered one of the better shooters in a class. I've attended Vickers, Jason Falla (on about four different occasions) Todd Green, and numerous others you've likely never heard of. I also will be attending Pat Mac and Paul Howe within the next three months.

    Well this past weekend I was fortunate enough to attend my first ever LE only class on a military facility thanks to a friend who's the NCOIC. It consisted of SWAT teams from a three letter agency spread throughout 5 different states. One of the teams was a full time unit out of a major city in California, and the others came from smaller areas of operations and had part time units. The fact that I was able to participate in the training was mind blowing and I was absolutely ecstatic.

    Things I learned:

    Not all high speed operators should be issued top of the line, $3K 1911's just because they're a member of a special unit. Of the 22 shooters on the line, 17 were running 1911's, and only about three of them could shoot them to their potential. The rest would have been perfectly suited (and in my opinion benefitted) from higher capacity Glocks or similar service weapons. Most of the guys were average shooters at best, and their 1911's only slowed them down.

    The competition at this particular class left a lot to be desired. At almost every open enrollment class I've ever been to, there's always two or three shooters present who really push me to the edge, and who are usually so good that I get flustered and start to suffer because of it. At this class, there was no one like that present. Dare I say, I was probably the fastest, most accurate shooter on the line (which I was disappointed by).

    Many of the shooters were bored easily. The class essentially covered "perfect execution of the fundamentals" as opposed to high speed door kicking tactics, and I think because of this many of the shooters felt like the training was below them. I was sad to see this, because I felt the training had a lot to offer, and while we weren't throwing flash bangs and blowing breach charges, we were absolutely learning life saving skills that I felt many simply let go over their heads because they felt like they were too good for it.

    All in all I'm incredibly happy with the class experience, and the guys there were some of the coolest dudes I've ever met, but it definitely showed me that LE guys shouldn't rely strictly on LE only training courses. I think that by doing this, you're only doing yourself a disservice. If you can afford $500 (and if you're a Fed, I know you can) than please consider taking an open enrollment class outside of something that your department or agency sends you to. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised and quickly humbled. And for those of you who are LE and already spend your own money on open enrollment courses, I tip my hat to you. You guys are way ahead of the curve.
    Last edited by F-Trooper05; 09-07-14 at 03:04.
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    What CSAT class will you be taking? I will be in his AIT class the wknd before thanksgiving.

    Sorry to hear the students didn't get a lot out of it. Just goes to show that being a SWAT team member does not an operator make.

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    In my experience, "LE/mil only" classes are restricted not because of the desire for privacy or the course matter taught (though sometimes that's the case). It's often because of the range facilities available in the area, or the relative ease with which an LE host can simply offer up their department range.

    I'm sorry, but not surprised, when LEOs forgo "basic" or "fundamental" classes. A couple years ago, a few of us hosted a development class for our agency. While most folks "got it", some just wanted to shoot fast, although their accuracy, even at slow fire, was not up to it.

    I just went to a fundamentals class that was anything but basic. Well worth the time and money.
    The advice above is worth exactly what you paid for it.

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    The enthusiasm difference may be because they aren't paying for it, but you are....
    "Those who do can't explain; those who don't can't understand"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogarth View Post
    What CSAT class will you be taking? I will be in his AIT class the wknd before thanksgiving.
    I'll be at the carbine/pistol instructor course on Nov 4-9. Pretty stoked.
    "Remember, if it doesn't violate the BYU Honor Code, it's not worth doing"
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydivr View Post
    The enthusiasm difference may be because they aren't paying for it, but you are....
    Agree completely. I guess when you're required to be doing something, rather than volunteering, it makes a huge difference as far as motivation goes.
    "Remember, if it doesn't violate the BYU Honor Code, it's not worth doing"
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    Normal.


    C4

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    I'm just curious asto how the 1911s we're slowing them down and how they could gave benefitted from a Glock in its place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F-Trooper05 View Post

    Things I learned:

    Not all high speed operators should be issued top of the line, $3K 1911's just because they're a member of a special unit. Of the 22 shooters on the line, 17 were running 1911's, and only about three of them could shoot them to their potential. The rest would have been perfectly suited (and in my opinion benefitted) from higher capacity Glocks or similar service weapons. Most of the guys were average shooters at best, and their 1911's only slowed them down.
    Most LEO's have no say in what the team issues them. Most LEO's are not gun enthusiasts. Most LEO's are not willing to spend money on job related training. Therefore they use whatever is issued.

    I am a bit confused by how they were slowed down by using 1911's. Can you elaborate on that?


    Quote Originally Posted by F-Trooper05 View Post
    The competition at this particular class left a lot to be desired. At almost every open enrollment class I've ever been to, there's always two or three shooters present who really push me to the edge, and who are usually so good that I get flustered and start to suffer because of it. At this class, there was no one like that present. Dare I say, I was probably the fastest, most accurate shooter on the line (which I was disappointed by).
    Most LEO's aren't great shooters. It's only one skill set of many and most of what we do operationally requires the other skills (investigating, research, surveillance, wires, etc.).

    Sadly many of them don't realize there are private citizens who are much better shots. It makes it tough to get some of the LEO's to come back out to a local match after an accountant from a bank destroys their time on every stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Trooper05 View Post
    Many of the shooters were bored easily. The class essentially covered "perfect execution of the fundamentals" as opposed to high speed door kicking tactics, and I think because of this many of the shooters felt like the training was below them. I was sad to see this, because I felt the training had a lot to offer, and while we weren't throwing flash bangs and blowing breach charges, we were absolutely learning life saving skills that I felt many simply let go over their heads because they felt like they were too good for it.
    Some.of it may well be arrogance. Most likely it's because they still view it as work. As mentioned, most are not into firearms and carrying a gun is just part of the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Trooper05 View Post
    All in all I'm incredibly happy with the class experience, and the guys there were some of the coolest dudes I've ever met, but it definitely showed me that LE guys shouldn't rely strictly on LE only training courses. I think that by doing this, you're only doing yourself a disservice. If you can afford $500 (and if you're a Fed, I know you can) than please consider taking an open enrollment class outside of something that your department or agency sends you to. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised and quickly humbled. And for those of you who are LE and already spend your own money on open enrollment courses, I tip my hat to you. You guys are way ahead of the curve.
    In my experience the courses that are restricted to LE/mil are that way because the range is not open to the public and/or the curriculum includes TTP's that are restricted. Myself and several of my friends from work routinely attend open enrollment classes (Defoor, McNamara, Proctor, etc.) on our own dime (ammo, tuition, gas, lodging). We are also the same group who shoot local steel matches, IDPA, USPSA, build AR's and carry more than one gun. The rest aren't going to attend firearms training unless the agency pays. It's sad, but it's the world in which we live and work.
    Before you suggest that licensing, background checks, or other restrictions for the 2nd Amendment are reasonable... Apply those same ideas to the 1st and 4th Amendments. Then tell me how reasonable they are.

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    Like in the military, even people whose jobs include kicking in doors may not be "gun people". There's a lot more to learn than just shooting and dare I say, tactics and communication are far more important once you reach a relatively average level of shooting skill.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

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