50 yard accuracy frustration

[JBecker 72]

He won't answer this, beacuse he has none.

I am an 11 year military veteran, spent mostly in infantry and recce units including combat deployments, and he calls me a couch commando and internet ninja.

I'm not a professional and I value input from guys like you when you offer it up. Thanks.

[Arctic1]

I've seen your posts both here and on Lightfighter. You're anything but, and a lot of us know that. Your input on the HK416 and its service with your military are insightful and appreciated.

Thanks.

And I agree with your comment on moving or partially obscured targets. Advocating a less than ideal accuracy standard will set you up for failure.

[Arctic1]

I'm not a professional and I value input from guys like you when you offer it up. Thanks.

Thanks. Not trying to toot my own horn though, just trying to point out ptmccain's MO.

[SpeedRacer]

Like has already been said, time to first shot and accuracy are really two different issues that need to be worked on and analyzed separately. Working the mechanics of mounting the rifle will get you from low ready to on target faster. Then the question is what's causing your groups to open up. You're either getting on target and then throwing the shot (trigger control), or your trigger control is fine but you're not lining up the shot properly (rushing the shot or taking the shot while the rifle is still in motion). I know I had a problem with the latter for a long time, I wasn't letting the rifle settle on target before pulling the trigger. There should be an ever so small moment of pause as cheek weld is established, the rifle is locked in position and the dot is held on the target (not just passing by) before the trigger is pressed. What worked for me (other than lots of dry fire runs) was really focusing on that one little moment where everything gets locked down. Take your time on that, and focus more on the accuracy of the shot. Slow it down enough to tighten up your groups, and let speed come as a biproduct of repetition.

[Zane1844]

Thanks everyone for the advice!

I have also been practicing at closer ranges, and at 25yards I do pretty well. Next range trip I will do what people are suggesting here.

And yes, I have taken on Basic Carbine course, which is how I found most of problems, and also improved upon them.

I think one of problems, as Speedracer mentioned, is that I am firing while the rifle is still in motion. Or I am trying to jerk the dot back to the target then I get an over-correction. I am good now at calling all my shots. Also, the class I took has helped me with trigger control, though it still has to be worked on.

What size target do you guys find suitable, for lets say, around 10 yards for dry fire? I want to practice my presentations more and NPOA when bringing the rifle up, however, it seems that using my normal target would make it easier at short ranges since the circle would be so big, or does it matter?

[26 Inf]

My accuracy while standing at 50 yards needs improvement. I am using an AR with a red dot and irons.

What MOA dot are you using? A 2 MOA dot will cover one inch of the POA at 50 yards, a 4 MOA will cover two inches.

This somewhat impacts your precision, although shooting on a round target you should be able to center the dot in the circle and get a good group.

As others indicated, make sure you are bringing the dot to your eye consistently by keeping your head erect, being aware of how you mount the stock into the shoulder - where it touches physically, and where your check touches the stock (cheek weld).

I generally work to mount the weapon as close to the centerline of my body as possible, and as high into the shoulder as possible. This helps me to keep my head erect and gives me consistency from shot to shot.

Ultimately the basic fundamentals of marksmanship can be boiled down to two things: 1) limiting the weapon's movement; 2) repeatable consistency from shot to shot.

Go slow, speed will come naturally - fast follows form.

[ptmccain]

Speed and Accuracy

*

The key to achieving and then maintaining proficiency at consistently punching holes in a 3x5 card at 50 cards from an offhand position is practice, practice and more practice, but the right kind of practice, and a LOT of ammo. There are no short-cuts or “secrets” beyond this.

*

The former NAVY SEAL vets, (one a 20 year vet, with 8 years with DEVGRU and then years of DOD firearm instructor positions), I train with, emphasize mastery of fundamentals and repeatability in everything you do when you prepare to take your shot, everything from stance, grip, presentation of rifle, cheek weld, and trigger squeeze.

*

Thousand of dry fire repetitions will go a long way toward honing these skills, assuming you are doing these repetitions correctly.

*

You may want to set a video camera up and tape yourself as you go through your dry fire drills so you can really see what you are actually doing, not what you think or feel like you are doing. It is a great way to monitor your mechanics, etc.

*

Don’t forget how important it is to continue properly to oxygenate your body and particularly your eyeballs. Great technique I’ve been taught is to take a few seconds to breath very deeply in through your nostrils, out through your mouth and keep doing it while firing. Don’t “lock up” your breathing or body, for you will suffer ocular occlusion very quickly and then the whole body will begin to tremble just enough to throw off accuracy. You have to keep the breathing going. Many people tend to stop breathing until they absolutely have to and then it is too late, too much CO2 is already in the body at that point and you will have to recover.

*

Break down each step of your shot and practice each step over and over again, then work at slowly putting them all together.

*

Proper trigger control can not be underemphasized, under stress the tendency is to want to yank the trigger. Again, a lot of dry fire will save $$ on ammo.

*

But it is finally countless hours of practice and thousands of rounds, tens of thousands, in fact, that will prepare you to snap into position as quickly as possible and achieve as much accuracy as possible.

*

The SEAL teams will put, literally, thirty or forty thousands rounds of ammo down range, each, of handgun and rifle rounds in their work-up for deployment and these are guys who have already train incessantly to begin with.

*

Most of us do not have that kind of time or unlimited $$ to fund our training, but we can all continue to practice, practice and practice again and reach our personal best.

*

Best wishes on your training!

*

[T2C]

How large is the dot? 2MOA? 4MOA? That makes a difference in what size target I would recommend. I reduce a silhouette an appropriate amount on my computer for the distance I will dry fire indoors, then print off a few copies. This comes in handy for dry fire drills in low light conditions in my basement.

One technique I like for finding your natural POA with an empty weapon is getting in your shooting stance, indexing either your iron sights or red dot on target, close your eyes, lower your weapon, raise your weapon, then open your eyes. I like to keep my shoulders square to the target and my head erect with eyes level with the horizon. If the sight system is not on target, go through a mental check list of what you have to do to acquire NPOA and remember it. If you have to push the weapon back on target, your body will react like a spring during the recoil sequence.

Once you are able to find your NPOA, I would suggest making subtle adjustments to stabilize the sight system on target and make a mental note of what you have to do to your shooting platform (body) to see the least amount of movement on target. This could be moving your strong side elbow closer to your body, rolling your shoulders forward, thrusting your support hand forward toward the front sling swivel, adjusting your hand on the grip, pointing your toes toward the target, etc. I would then suggest presenting the weapon with the most stable shooting position dozens of times during dry fire exercises before using live ammunition to get feedback on how much your shooting skills have developed.

With either iron sights or optics, I believe that follow through with both your sight system and trigger press is important. If you are rapidly engaging multiple targets, your follow through time will be reduced and accuracy will be traded off for speed. When you are not happy with the hits you are getting on target, slow down a notch and practice good shooting technique. Speed comes with time and repetition.

Once you get the hang of things, you might want to practice rapidly engaging paper targets with different geometric shapes, such as a circle, square, star, triangle and upside down triangle. This makes you think a bit more when trying to get hits in the center of different shapes, which mentally reinforces indexing.

This is the Cliff Notes version of a 4 hour block of instruction.

Don't get discouraged. If you stay at it, the light bulb will eventually go off and you will appreciate that the effort was worth it.

[GunBugBit]

Ah, the old Richard-swinging contest.

To settle who I'd take advice from, I'd simply put a target at 7 paces and run you through Bill Drills with a couple of firearms, look at the timer results and location of holes you punched in the paper (if you got your shots on the paper), and watch your every move very closely.

This is all I'd need to decide if I'm going to take advice from you.

No matter who you are or think you are.

More likely, though, I'll put competitive considerations aside and try to enjoy a collegial exchange of ideas as we each train in our own way, trying to pick up whatever nuggets I can from you, even if I see you aren't what I would call top shelf.

Zane1844, you probably won't improve much reading advice from forum members; real world instruction will advance you much, much faster.

[T2C]

Ah, the old Richard-swinging contest.

To settle who I'd take advice from, I'd simply put a target at 7 paces and run you through Bill Drills with a couple of firearms, look at the timer results and location of holes you punched in the paper (if you got your shots on the paper), and watch your every move very closely.


Zane1844, you probably won't improve much reading advice from forum members; real world instruction will advance you much, much faster.

1) I agree seeing if the instructor uses what they teach effectively is the acid test.

2) I also agree that in person coaching is more effective than offering advice on an internet site, but he did ask.

I am going to keep Richard out of this.