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Thread: Instructors on the record about rifle selection

  1. #31
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    Much has been said about folks sponsored by makers and of course this in general will have an impact on what they recommend. I think it was Howe who used to keep a notebook on the range for his classes. Students were asked to log all stoppages and parts breakages, causes along with make and models.

    Seeing such a book would render a lot of of unbiased information.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I disagree. Yeager has seen tons of lead go downrange, and his opinions on quality carbines that hold up to that are worth just as much as any of the other guys, IMO.

    Now, his moral compass? His grasp of tactics? His choice of clothing? That's all up for debate as far as I'm concerned, but I do not feel anyone can logically argue that he has not seen which guns hold up to hard shooting and which don't.

    The facts of the matter are that many of the names listed "like what they like" for monetary, political, or friendship reasons.

    Take LAV for instance. He was 100% Daniel Defense when DD was paying him. Now, he is not. He will not recommend DD. He doesn't talk bad about them, but when he recommends guns, he doesn't list them.

    Follow the dollar.

    Personally, I question the validity of going with what an SME endorses as the end-all, be-all, considering all of the relationships in the industry that we DON'T see.
    I think it takes more than just money to get a real deal to endorse a product. They aren't going to put their reputation out on the line for a piece of shit. At least that's my opinion, take it or leave it.

    As far as Yeager goes, I stand by my comment. That guy hasn't a scintilla of the the experience that the other guys mentioned do. So he was a contractor in Iraq. Yes he did get himself and his team mates into an ambush and he folded up like a cheap Boy Scout knife during it. I'm not saying he's a pussy, he did go do a dangerous job in support of our troops but to lump him into the BTDT category is just wrong. Again, that's my opinion so take it or leave it.

    I do agree with you on the validity of a SME portraying one product an "end all, be all" and I don't think I have seen anyone mentioned who infers that. Just because a lot of them endorse BCM, doesn't mean that's what they are saying. BCM does in fact make a hell of a rifle (I own multiple) and I wouldn't hesitate to take one into a fight. Then again, neither would I hesitate to take my DD, a Noveske, or my current duty issued Colt 6920 or one of my Sionics rifles. As long as they are built right using quality parts, I don't care what stamp is on the side of the lower.

    As far as some of the original question and reason for this post goes, I know that Chris Kyle was a big fan of LWRC's REPR and Paul Howe even had a signature LWRC rifle too at one time if I am not mistaken.
    Last edited by ryantx23; 10-08-14 at 06:53.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryantx23 View Post
    I think it takes more than just money to get a real deal to endorse a product. They aren't going to put their reputation out on the line for a piece of shit. At least that's my opinion, take it or leave it.
    No, but there is plenty of gear out there that's good. Once you get into Colt/DD/BCM/Etc. hanging your hat on one brand or the other just because "so and so" "prefers" it is meaningless.

    As far as Yeager goes, I stand by my comment. That guy hasn't a scintilla of the the experience that the other guys mentioned do. So he was a contractor in Iraq. Yes he did get himself and his team mates into an ambush and he folded up like a cheap Boy Scout knife during it. Again, that's my opinion so take it or leave it. I do agree with you on the validity of a SME portraying one product an "end all, be all" and I don't think I have seen anyone mentioned who infers that. Just because a lot of them endorse BCM, doesn't mean that's what they are saying. BCM does in fact make a hell of a rifle (I own multiple) and I wouldn't hesitate to take one into a fight. Then again, neither would I hesitate to take my DDM4V5LW, or my current duty issued Colt 6920 or any of my Sionics rifles. As long as they are built right using quality parts, I don't care what stamp is on the side of the lower. I would wager that Yeager has personally seen A TON more lead go downrange stateside than anyone ever saw go downrange in Iraq/Afghanistan in an environment in which they could inspect/diagnose failures. Further, there is no variety in Iraq/Afghanistan. It's all (almost all) issued gear. It is what it is. So until we can buy FN M4 carbines, what's the point? I am not trying to say that Yeager even understands the M4 platform. However, he HAS SEEN a ton of rounds go downrange, and any idiot can draw a conclusion that's reasonably accurate about certain products from that. Show a toddler 2 toys, one red, and one blue, and the red one makes a noise they don't like, and the blue one makes a pleasant noise, and even a toddler will go for the blue one after a few times.

    As far as some of the original question and reason for this post goes, I know that Chris Kyle was a big fan of LWRC's REPR and Paul Howe even had a signature LWRC rifle too at one time if I am not mistaken.
    If you look back at the history of most SME's, you will find them endorsing most of the "big names" at some point or another. I just don't understand the topic. It's like asking "which cars has Randy Pobst enjoyed driving"? Well...everything from the ZR1 to the BRZ, pretty much. But he races an AWD Volvo that isn't street legal in his professional career, so...
    Last edited by WS6; 10-08-14 at 07:05.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Doesn't Chris also endorse War Sport? It's surely a War Sport on his Facebook page. Not to mention pics I have seen of him shooting it.
    IIRC Chris is or was sponsored by KAC as well. Or if not, he certainly has and uses a lot of KAC rifles.

    ETA:
    http://www.knightarmco.com/knights/gallery/

    Guess he's a sponsored instructor.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 10-08-14 at 08:09.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #35
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    Jason falla and redbackone endorse kac
    Last edited by 03scgt; 10-08-14 at 08:11.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    IIRC Chris is or was sponsored by KAC as well. Or if not, he certainly has and uses a lot of KAC rifles.

    ETA:
    http://www.knightarmco.com/knights/gallery/

    Guess he's a sponsored instructor.
    I believe KAC has given him rifles, but I don't believe he's ever been outright paid by KAC. Funny how KAC doesn't really have anyone on the pay roll to endorse their products yet pretty much everyone will acknowledge their rifles are a rung above pretty much everyone. BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, LMT & LaRue all certainly make a decent product as well.... Yet take LMT for example, most of us would agree they make great rifles & parts, yet their marketing department SUCKS. On the flip side of that, just because Chris Costa goes and endorses war sports doesn't mean I'm going to go out and buy their goofy tacticool rifle. Thankfully we have resources like this forum where we can decipher the bullshit from what is legit.

  7. #37
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    I had an instructor from Tigerswan named Dave Borresen, he shot a JP and liked it.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by alvincullumyork View Post
    That's just who they are sponsored by, I will separate sponsored versus endorsed later. Plus it was easy to grab those 11 as BCM has them listed on there site, This is list is just beginning. Not saying BCM doesn't make a great rifle or that these gentlemen would sell there name to a brand (that isn't up to snuff) for a price, but it is still a sponsorship. The only two who I've seen, so far, endorse companies they weren't sponsored by is Larry Vickers and Yeager. Mr. Vickers endorsement of Colt is very telling to me because as far as I know he has no financial ties to them. That to me gives even more credibility to his recommendations for BCM and DD.

    Endorsed and sponsored are the same animal when it comes to the guys under the BCM GunFighter name. If these guys thought your product was crap, they would NOT accept one for free or let you associate their name with your brand.

    So that means they think BCM makes a fantastic product.


    C4

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I disagree. Yeager has seen tons of lead go downrange, and his opinions on quality carbines that hold up to that are worth just as much as any of the other guys, IMO.
    Ya, I would have to disagree with this. He does not hold a candle to the Tier 1 one guys under the BCM GF name (sorry).

    Take LAV for instance. He was 100% Daniel Defense when DD was paying him. Now, he is not. He will not recommend DD. He doesn't talk bad about them, but when he recommends guns, he doesn't list them.

    Follow the dollar.

    Personally, I question the validity of going with what an SME endorses as the end-all, be-all, considering all of the relationships in the industry that we DON'T see.
    When LAV worked for DD he would speak highly of BCM, Colt, etc. So not always about money.

    Depends on who the SME's are. Since I personally know most all the guys that work for Alias Training, they wont use something they don't think is first rate and sure as hell won't let you use their name with your product. So yes, you can trust the products they endorse.



    C4

  10. #40
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    I am pretty sure in some of his Panteo videos Paul Howe uses a pretty worn looking Larue, though I do not know or recall if he specifically endorsed or recommended it. Not too surprising if you consider they are both located in TX.

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