Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 105

Thread: Border Patrol Rifles Deadlining

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,904
    Feedback Score
    44 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Horned Toad View Post
    When a stateside LEO is responsible for every round that comes out of the barrel, lets not give them full auto. A high quality personally owned semi auto rifle is more than adequate and something that could be taken home and shot off duty.
    I understand what you are saying. But I keep thinking about where these agents are stationed, and their potential adversaries.

    They are not on the set of Mayberry RFD, a lot of them are in very remote locations with backup a long way off. Add in Mexican drug cartels or Mexican military troops, and I keep thinking I'd prefer to have the option of a group therapy switch.

    And I say this as someone living in a large city where they issue cops a Colt 6933 SBR.

    I don't think an M4A1 is a bad choice for them at all.

    I hope they get their deadlined weapons repaired soon. I'd also prefer we gave everyone one of them an issue weapon, rather than passing them out to some of our "friends" overseas. But that's honestly drifting this thread off course.

    ETA - and nothing in my post should be read as a criticism of the men and women in the Border Patrol. I just keep thinking about the rules they have to follow on use of force, and it flat out baffles me. I have read so many accounts of them getting shot at by bad guys, or stand-offs with Mexican military vehicles that cross the border. Add in the murder of Brian Terry, and it makes me even more angry.

    I just wish they had any and all tools they need. It just makes me sad and frustrated, and has me shaking my head. They have a nearly impossible job, and I feel they get nowhere near the support they deserve from the politicians in Washington.

    Every time I think about it, a rant starts coming out - sigh.
    Last edited by SeriousStudent; 11-02-14 at 01:54. Reason: added unhappy political rant......

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NM
    Posts
    3,988
    Feedback Score
    10 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    There are so many way to fix these problems but the money is being blown elsewhere.
    This nails it - and the worst part is that the only thing a big enough taxpayer furor would do about it is install yet another permanent middle management bureaucracy that saps even more money.
    عندما تصبح الأسلحة محظورة, قد يملكون حظرون عندهم فقط
    کله چی سلاح منع شوی دی، یوازي غلوونکۍ یی به درلود
    Semper Fi
    "Being able to do the basics, on demand, takes practice. " - Sinister

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    846
    Feedback Score
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Horned Toad View Post
    When a stateside LEO is responsible for every round that comes out of the barrel, lets not give them full auto. A high quality personally owned semi auto rifle is more than adequate and something that could be taken home and shot off duty.
    Wait, we can give rouge nations that hate us billions of US dollars but we are concerned about our Law Enforcement Officers and Border Patrol who risk their lives daily in the defense of our citizens and country firing off a few extra bullets? WTF?
    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
    - George Washington

    "Some of you would bitch if a hot blonde served you a perfect steak and beer of choice while naked and performed acts not described." Mark5pt56

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    454
    Feedback Score
    0
    I've recently heard from a guy on the southern border that said he chooses to not carry a long gun at all, but not due to unavailability. I wouldn't make that choice myself, but after having many long conversations with southern BP, I get the distinct impression that the BP use of force rules are so stringent that, as a side effect, they are encouraging agents to avoid firearms for self defense completely. Even further damaging morale is that agents feel their superiors will not back them up if deadly force is employed. Many feel the opposite could occur. It is discouraging agents from keeping proper defense available, which as SeriousStudent pointed out, is especially dicey in remote locations. Sad indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horned Toad View Post
    When a stateside LEO is responsible for every round that comes out of the barrel, lets not give them full auto. A high quality personally owned semi auto rifle is more than adequate and something that could be taken home and shot off duty.
    Not to derail the thread, but everyone who uses a firearm is responsible for every round sent down the pipe. That is the standard for civilian, military, or active criminal, and whether firing a single shot, semi, burst or otherwise. Now, my opinion is that full auto firearms should have off-the-shelf availability as other firearms do now. All people should be given the choice to responsibly self regulate. Conversely, they can choose not to and the consequences that accompany.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    7,969
    Feedback Score
    15 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by JS-Maine View Post
    I've recently heard from a guy on the southern border that said he chooses to not carry a long gun at all, but not due to unavailability. I wouldn't make that choice myself, but after having many long conversations with southern BP, I get the distinct impression that the BP use of force rules are so stringent that, as a side effect, they are encouraging agents to avoid firearms for self defense completely. Even further damaging morale is that agents feel their superiors will not back them up if deadly force is employed. Many feel the opposite could occur. It is discouraging agents from keeping proper defense available, which as SeriousStudent pointed out, is especially dicey in remote locations. Sad indeed.
    This a thousand times over. The current administration has completely abandoned their responsibility to ensure the people they send out to do a job, actually have the authority, resources and support to complete the mission. It's unconscionable.
    What if this whole crusade's a charade?
    And behind it all there's a price to be paid
    For the blood which we dine
    Justified in the name of the holy and the divine…

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    43
    Feedback Score
    7 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by JS-Maine View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but everyone who uses a firearm is responsible for every round sent down the pipe. That is the standard for civilian, military, or active criminal, and whether firing a single shot, semi, burst or otherwise. Now, my opinion is that full auto firearms should have off-the-shelf availability as other firearms do now. All people should be given the choice to responsibly self regulate. Conversely, they can choose not to and the consequences that accompany.
    Given the current trend of law enforcement to over react and shoot the shit out of everything I would rather Agents got lots of practice rounds, high stress training and a assigned rifles. Unless an Agent is prior military, on a specialty unit, or lucky and gets a limited school slot, they shoot 240 rounds a year out of the M4A1, 10 rounds to zero and 50 rounds to qualify four times a year. Agents used to shoot full auto bursts during quals, but that has changed. Full auto is not going to suddenly transform an Agent with limited experience and training into a fearsome fighting machine. Thats not a slam on Agents, its just the way it is, and the motivated ones still go out and do their job.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    10,904
    Feedback Score
    44 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by Horned Toad View Post
    Given the current trend of law enforcement to over react and shoot the shit out of everything I would rather Agents got lots of practice rounds, high stress training and a assigned rifles. Unless an Agent is prior military, on a specialty unit, or lucky and gets a limited school slot, they shoot 240 rounds a year out of the M4A1, 10 rounds to zero and 50 rounds to qualify four times a year. Agents used to shoot full auto bursts during quals, but that has changed. Full auto is not going to suddenly transform an Agent with limited experience and training into a fearsome fighting machine. Thats not a slam on Agents, its just the way it is, and the motivated ones still go out and do their job.
    Yup, I definitely follow you about increased opportunities to train, and more practice ammo. Bring them in on the clock, pay them to practice, and reward those who do well.

    If it were some training about human resources or new comms equipment, would they train them on their own time and on their own dime? I bet not.

    I sure do hope this gets resolved soon, and they are in my thoughts and prayers.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    454
    Feedback Score
    0
    A good start would be to reappropriate all the new rifles and ammo that has gone to other BS agencies that shouldn't have them in the first place, and send them toward BP instead. I mean, USDA, NOAA, etc...really? The list goes on.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    570
    Feedback Score
    0
    Full auto would be the last thing you'd need in a open country firefight with unknown amount of adversaries and limted ammunition.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    454
    Feedback Score
    0
    As we say in Maine... Tough tellin' not knowin'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apricotshot View Post
    Full auto would be the last thing you'd need in a open country firefight with unknown amount of adversaries and limted ammunition.

Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •