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Thread: Border Patrol Rifles Deadlining

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBecker 72 View Post
    They have to share rifles with other agents? What the hell is that about?
    LOL, reminds me of the Red Army sending human waves against the Nazi Juggernaut armed with MG42's, STG-44s, etc. They would have two man groups run towards the enemy, poor bastard in front was given a single Mosin-Nagant and another poor bastard behind him with a few extra cartridges so he could pick up the soon to be dead guy's rifle and use it until he got cut down himself.
    "In a nut shell, if it ever goes to Civil War, I'm afraid I'll be in the middle 70%, shooting at both sides" — 26 Inf


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  2. #42
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    http://www.kvoa.com/news/n4t-investi...agents-rifles/

    We learned that U.S. Customs and Border Protection's Offices of Border Patrol and Training and Development are inspecting the quality of agents' M4 carbines throughout Border Patrol sectors nationwide. But agents tell us, some of those M4s have not been replaced. And, we've learned, agents are required to share rifles amongst each other.
    Del Cueto tells us that because some of those M4s have not been replaced, agents are pooling their weapons, which makes it difficult to personalize the settings on a rifle, such as the sights.

    Prather believes removing some of the rifles maybe politically motivated. He says he was told that many of these guns are being removed for issues that are easily repaired like the firing pin and bolt.

    He broke down a M4 as he spoke.

    "This weapon is designed to be able to be in a battle situation, changed out rather quickly even so fast that modern weapons have areas to hold spare bolts," he said.

    That makes him suspicious that the agency could be disarming its agents.
    My take: Of course it's political. Duh.


    EDITED TO ADD: OP, you should retitle this thread "Border Patrol: If you like your M4's you can keep your M4's"
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 11-10-14 at 14:16.

  3. #43
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    Well, here is some perspective from a Border Patrol Agent:

    First things first, from what I experienced I believe that a lot of the hype leading up to this was just that, hype. As I am currently assigned to the station's training unit as a firearms instructor I dealt with this directly and I was in the armory assisting in the inspection the entire time. The armor that I dealt with was knowledgeable and beyond professional. We took every opportunity to save rifles. We replaced firing pins, bolt carriers, buffers, buffer springs, and gas rings. The only thing that wasn't replaced was the actual bolt. There was no attempt to just get rid of guns with abandon.

    Before we get into the meat of this, understand that a Patrol Agents work is fairly dynamic. BP aren't cops. Our mission is essentially a military one, but we are required to conduct ourselves in a traditional LEO fashion with similar ROEs and policies. You can be working the highways/checkpoints one min and then be at 9k feet tracking mules the next. For the most part we work in areas that are remote and in environments that are rugged and unforgiving. There is no question that we are hard on gear and even former jar heads are taken aback by how much we break shit. With that in mind onto the inspection.

    My station has about 230(ish) agents and we did fairly well. We lost aprox half our Pool/pull rifles, all of our K9 semi autos (oldest ones in inventory), and about 6 issued rifles. Out of 137 rifles we lost 24 to the inspection. Please understand that pull rifles see the majority of use. Assigned rifles are typically only seeing aprox 200 rounds annually unless the agent gets to attend some special training. Pull rifles can see the range every day monday through friday and have upwards of 10k rounds (if my math is right) run through them in a year. With that information we can conclude two things. One, issued rifles are the way to go. Two, if there are not enough rifles for everyone, then stations need "Range" guns for agents who do not have assigned rifles.

    For the most part we lost rifles for damaged bolts (cracked/chipped lugs) and firing pin holes (elongated/chipped). A few were due to loose/bent barrels and some other odd issues.
    Pretty good seeing as how the majority of rifles through out sector lost 40-50% of their inventory. As it goes in the government, no good deed goes unpunished. As of Monday we received word that we would be losing 36 additional rifles to be redistributed through out sector. While I'm not upset with or by the inspection, I am upset with the consequences of the results. ****ing unbelievable…

    Annual inspection of equipment that is used by multiple agents is not necessarily a bad thing. I actual think that it is a good thing. Not having the logistic support available to support the potential consequences is not a good thing.
    What I mean is, if you are going to do something like this (i.e., conduct an arms inspection on weapons that have never been touched by an armor since they left the factory) then you better show up with weapons to replace the ones that are designated as deadlined.

    Now that the deed is done, how can we get back to be where we need to be or even better where we should be? I suppose that is the million dollar question. My suggestion is to allow agents to self purchase rifles, have them entered into the inventory, and housed in the armory with annual armor inspections. From my perspective that would be the best solution. The agents that truly want/need the rifle will purchase their rifle and in turn will take care of them. Now I know that is wishful thinking, and will not happen. The only other option I see is for the agency to procure more carbines and have them divided up amongst the stations. What ever they do, they need to do it ASAP. Between the loss of our carbines and the lack of practice ammo things are starting to get a little serious.




    While you or I would not hesitate to shove a new bolt into a carrier, gauge it and drive on, that isn't the way the .gov rolls. I would imagine it has to go up an echelon of maintenance.
    Last edited by 26 Inf; 11-10-14 at 14:32.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Well, here is some perspective from a Border Patrol Agent:

    ...

    While you or I would not hesitate to shove a new bolt into a carrier, gauge it and drive on, that isn't the way the .gov rolls. I would imagine it has to go up an echelon of maintenance.
    DISCLAIMER: I am not questioning what you are saying or trying to give you a hard time, so please don't take it that way. I just want to point out some screwy things I've been hearing, (former) red shirt to red shirt.

    I'm hearing that some of the guns being deadlined are newer rifles with less than 1000 rounds through them. Some guns pass inspection one day and get inspected again and fail. I REALLY would like to see the reasoning for those rifles getting trashed. Assuming no extreme misuse, I'm just not aware of many things you can do to a Colt within 1000 rounds that would cause it to be irreparably damaged. The ONLY possibility I can come up with is that the vehicle rifle racks combined with off-roading are somehow damaging/bending barrels. Meanwhile there are guys walking around with P2Ks with 2x the service life round count that can't get replacements. Something with this whole deal is screwy, especially considering a lot of stations were short on rifles to begin with.

    Also, I'm not aware of many rifles getting 10k rounds a year through them, especially at a station that small with that many rifles. You should be running less than 55k rounds a year to qual the whole station. So, no more than six rifles should be getting that sort of round count. You should be averaging 400ish rounds a year per rifle. Hardly high round count. Assuming a consistent rifle to agent ratio over the years, even 20 year old rifles should have (on average) less than 10k rounds. I understand that the pool rifles are going to see more quals, but there should not be anywhere near 10k rounds a year through them unless they are dedicated range rifles. Even running carbine classes should not be putting that high of a round count on the guns.

    That being said, the preventative maintenance and repair done on BP rifles is atrocious, especially considering the conditions they are used in. This could be resolved for a relatively low cost without leaving stations short on rifles. Maybe this whole thing is just the culmination of years of neglect. I'm just very concerned by the standards that are being used to decimate the armories, when there are guys out working the line that NEED rifles. I respect that you tried to keep them from needlessly deadlining rifles. You guys still lost almost 18% of your guns. Some stations are losing more than 40%. This is simply not sustainable and I'm not hearing much about replacing the rifles or anything about improving maintenance standards.

    EDIT: I also agree that the solution is a personally owned weapon program. Keep it simple. Colt 6920s with only drop in aftermarket parts (nothing that takes a tool to replace) allowed. Agents could add drop in rails, stocks, lights, slings, authorized optics, iron sights, etc. Everything else has to be stock Colt. Make them have quarterly inspections along with the Service rifles (which need to be inspected too). No need to keep the guns in the Station. Agents should be trusted with a rifle they can legally have at home otherwise and should have it available to defend themselves and their families.
    Last edited by mechelaar; 11-11-14 at 20:59.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechelaar View Post
    DISCLAIMER: I am not questioning what you are saying or trying to give you a hard time, so please don't take it that way. I just want to point out some screwy things I've been hearing, (former) red shirt to red shirt.

    I'm hearing that some of the guns being deadlined are newer rifles with less than 1000 rounds through them. Some guns pass inspection one day and get inspected again and fail. I REALLY would like to see the reasoning for those rifles getting trashed. Assuming no extreme misuse, I'm just not aware of many things you can do to a Colt within 1000 rounds that would cause it to be irreparably damaged. The ONLY possibility I can come up with is that the vehicle rifle racks combined with off-roading are somehow damaging/bending barrels. Meanwhile there are guys walking around with P2Ks with 2x the service life round count that can't get replacements. Something with this whole deal is screwy, especially considering a lot of stations were short on rifles to begin with.

    Also, I'm not aware of many rifles getting 10k rounds a year through them, especially at a station that small with that many rifles. You should be running less than 55k rounds a year to qual the whole station. So, no more than six rifles should be getting that sort of round count. You should be averaging 400ish rounds a year per rifle. Hardly high round count. Assuming a consistent rifle to agent ratio over the years, even 20 year old rifles should have (on average) less than 10k rounds. I understand that the pool rifles are going to see more quals, but there should not be anywhere near 10k rounds a year through them unless they are dedicated range rifles. Even running carbine classes should not be putting that high of a round count on the guns.

    That being said, the preventative maintenance and repair done on BP rifles is atrocious, especially considering the conditions they are used in. This could be resolved for a relatively low cost without leaving stations short on rifles. Maybe this whole thing is just the culmination of years of neglect. I'm just very concerned by the standards that are being used to decimate the armories, when there are guys out working the line that NEED rifles. I respect that you tried to keep them from needlessly deadlining rifles. You guys still lost almost 18% of your guns. Some stations are losing more than 40%. This is simply not sustainable and I'm not hearing much about replacing the rifles or anything about improving maintenance standards.

    EDIT: I also agree that the solution is a personally owned weapon program. Keep it simple. Colt 6920s with only drop in aftermarket parts (nothing that takes a tool to replace) allowed. Agents could add drop in rails, stocks, lights, slings, authorized optics, iron sights, etc. Everything else has to be stock Colt. Make them have quarterly inspections along with the Service rifles (which need to be inspected too). No need to keep the guns in the Station. Agents should be trusted with a rifle they can legally have at home otherwise and should have it available to defend themselves and their families.

    I’m familiar with the Agent who wrote the above info. His numbers may be a bit off on the round count total for the M4s but overall for that location he is spot on.

    The question is why now was there an inspection. There has never been a M4 inspection modern Agent history. Not saying it’s a bad thing.

    How come they did a whole sector at one time?

    How come an outfit as big as the BP had no immediate plan to replace rifles?

    Two main rumors are going around
    One is Harpers Ferry want to be some sort of depot for all the firearms stuff. If you are a redshirt you should know empire building is a huge problem in the BP and it is the Agent in the field that loses out. How is one location going to do maintenance on that number of rifles

    Other rumor is someone wants to get a PDW and has to justify the purchase. So at a time when the BP was looking at 308s, they might now get stuck with an 11”SBR. Its about equivalent to when someone whispered in Harry Ruffles ear that some women can shoot a shotgun with pistol grip better than a regular shotgun, so the entire patrol got pistol grip shotguns and all the Wilson/Scattergun Technologies 870s disappeared.

    On the P2000 there are still at least 8k in inventory so getting a replacement shouldn't be a problem.

  6. #46
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    I just want to be clear about something. Am I to understand that they have never done inspections, or had an inspection process set up in the past and then they go out and inspect a whole bunch of weapons at once? Does that sum it up?

    If that is the case, then those to blame are the ones who manage the USBP firearms policy. The M4 is not a complicated weapon to maintain. All that needs to happen is for someone to give up their fiefdom and have personnel in place at the local level (like unit armorer's with teeth) to conduct inspection and make repairs. If the military can manage hundreds of thousands of weapons, I am certain that the Border Patrol can do it also, if they want.

    I wouldn't be surprised to learn there is more behind this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horned Toad View Post
    I’m familiar with the Agent who wrote the above info. His numbers may be a bit off on the round count total for the M4s but overall for that location he is spot on.

    The question is why now was there an inspection. There has never been a M4 inspection modern Agent history. Not saying it’s a bad thing.

    How come they did a whole sector at one time?

    How come an outfit as big as the BP had no immediate plan to replace rifles?

    Two main rumors are going around
    One is Harpers Ferry want to be some sort of depot for all the firearms stuff. If you are a redshirt you should know empire building is a huge problem in the BP and it is the Agent in the field that loses out. How is one location going to do maintenance on that number of rifles

    Other rumor is someone wants to get a PDW and has to justify the purchase. So at a time when the BP was looking at 308s, they might now get stuck with an 11”SBR. Its about equivalent to when someone whispered in Harry Ruffles ear that some women can shoot a shotgun with pistol grip better than a regular shotgun, so the entire patrol got pistol grip shotguns and all the Wilson/Scattergun Technologies 870s disappeared.

    On the P2000 there are still at least 8k in inventory so getting a replacement shouldn't be a problem.



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  7. #47
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    The post 26inf made were my words from LF.

    Mechelaar... My hasty math might have been a bit off. I based my calculation off one rifle being checked out every day with 50 rounds fired, 5 times a week for four weeks a month, and 10 months out of the year (50x5 = 250, 250x4 = 1000, 1000x10 = 10000). In retrospect that isn't exactly accurate (although it has the potential to be).

    Since I don't have the data right in front of me lets say that out of the 137 rifles we had, 110 of them were assigned rifles and that 25 were pull (2 were already deadlined for loose barrels). Obviously the assigned rifles are only going to see the 200 rounds a year. Barring physical damage or internal/manufacturing defects those guns will last a very long time.

    Moving onto the pull guns. Lets assume that all the pull guns at our station are fairly rotated through the quals and each rifle is only seeing 1000 rounds per year (rounding up of course and using the modified 50 round qual). If that were the case, then yes it would take about 10 years to hit the 10k mark. With that said, you and I both know that isn't true. I guarantee that some rifles are seeing more then their fair share of love. Say for instance that all the guys check out 1-10 and 1-10 only. Why? Let's say that they are closest to the door and easiest to get too (pretty typical in this outfit, right?) and that 10-20 are always checked out by agents on shift. That means that 1000 rounds a year just jumped to 2400 rounds a year and in 5 years we are at the 10k mark on those ten rifles. In reality there are no real numbers because there aren't any records. With out information we can only guess and personally I will always estimate high and assume the worse.

    As far as damaging a (young/newish) rifle to the point of deadlining it, that shit happens. Agents are like bunch of drunken monkeys when it comes to gear and equipment. You already know this. A bent barrel and or similar is not hard to fathom given the environment, deployment, and various mods of transportation utilized by a PAs. I don't know what to tell you about the P2Ks. At this station, if Agents break them then they are replaced with out question. Horned Toads estimation of on hand P2Ks is probably pretty low. From what I've been told, we will have H&Ks long into the future just based off of current inventory. If your station is having issues getting them or issuing them out then you need to address that.

    The inspection wasn't a bad thing and its something that needs to happen on a continual basis. The only bad thing about this is that there wasn't a contingency plan in place before the inspection was initiated. THAT is the problem, not the inspection. We knew we were going to lose guns, and yet we failed to prepare for it. Everyone has the right to pontificate about the inspection and its results, but we need to remember that not all of us are armorers. The difference between even a knowledgable enduser and a basic armorer can be pretty substantial. I truly feel that people are missing the point on this. Weapons are machines and machines need maintenance. Even with regular maintenance, a machine will eventually wear out and need to be replaced. Think of these rifles as vehicles. Vehicles require a certain amount of maintenance. Sure a truck can go several thousand miles beyond the recommended oil change, but do you really want to do that? If we (the Border Patrol) have such a strict adherence to our vehicles, then why would we treat our weapon systems any differently? We have mechanics to insure that we are good to on the road, so why the heck don't we have armorers or at the very least a maintenance schedule in place for our weapons? Laziness and incompetence pure and simple.

    Rant aside, we need to start coming up with solutions and fast. Rifles are essential pieces of equipment. Its not like they're a PRD or some other sort of rubbish that doesn't matter. They really are necessary and its not ok to send Agents out into the field without a rifle. I think many of use see the same solutions to this dilema. If I had it my way I'd immediately authorize agents to purchase rifles from XXXX and YYYYYY companies in 3 configurations. An 18", a 14.5 (mid length of course), and a 11.5 (with proper ATF paperwork as it wouldn't be an agency purchase). The justification for having them available for self defense off duty has already been made here http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/06...el-sources-say. I would follow the authorization for self purchase with the hiring of armorers and implementation of a maintenance/replacement schedule. Pull weapon numbers would be reduced (to encourage self purchase) and Range/Training weapons would be designated with a rotation established. Of course, the union would get involved and totally **** that shit all up.

    In the end, I wouldn't be surprised any one of the conspiracies were true. Honestly though, I don't think its anything more then our agency's legendary ineptitude. I think that it was simply some ass hat in an office up in DC who got the idea in his head that this thing needed to happen. Said ass hat had the power to make it so or knew the people that did. Either way, what's been done has been done and there is no going backwards. We need to realize that the issue has little to do with the inspection and more to do with the fact that there never has been an inspection until now and the that there never have been enough rifles for everyone. Availability and maintainability are the only two things that we need to be concerned with from this point forward.

  8. #48
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    sixtop,

    I don't think anyone (at least not me) is failing to understand that they are "machines" and need maintenance. In fact, most here would agree with that. What is surprising is that it is my understanding that no maintenance plan had been put in place previously. That means that those in charge of the firearms program who ordered the inspections are either complete idiots or naive to think that they were going to just walk in and everything was going to be all roses.

    The Border Patrol wasn't founded last year or the last decade. It's been around for a long time. So how was this type of stuff handled all the previous years? How hard is it to find BP agents to train at unit level type armorers or hire civilian employees or even contract personnel to do this?

    Hell I have a plan right now. It's called the "Vets to Work Border Patrol Initiative". Put out a bulletin looking for qualified weapons guys, provide them some training and tools, and put them to work.



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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    I just want to be clear about something. Am I to understand that they have never done inspections, or had an inspection process set up in the past and then they go out and inspect a whole bunch of weapons at once? Does that sum it up?
    15+ years multiple locations , no know inspection process.

  10. #50
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    Good info, guys. I appreciate it. I jumped ship a while back, so my info is all second hand. You know how the BP rumor mill goes. As crazy as the stories are on the inside, once they get out they are even worse. What you guys are saying puts my mind at ease a bit. I still have a problem with them suddenly busting out inspections with no real plans in place to fix the issue, but, hey, it is the G. Hanlon's razor and all that.

    Iraqgunz, I've been bitching for years about a lack of a maintenance program. You have to understand that each BP station runs fairly independently. While one may have a good, proactive primary firearms instructor (PFI), the next may have a worthless admin slug. From what I understand (and either of the current BP guys can correct me) all major maintenance/repairs on the rifles is supposed to be done at the national level. The station armorers are very limited on what they are officially allowed to do to the rifles. So if you have a PFI that's more worried about his inventory and numbers, a broken gun may sit on the rack for years with a "do not issue" tag because sending it in for repair could potentially screw up some sort of numbers. Some stations do have off the books weapons repair and maintenance, but guys are having to stick their necks out a bit to keep the guns running.

    As far as the P2Ks, broken ones were always replaced, although not necessarily in a timely manner. I had a guy whose pistol broke on the range on a Friday. I called the PFI and he wanted me to wait until Monday to replace it. **** that. The high round count ones are more of a concern. The general response I got when I mentioned agents needing new pistols due to round count is to wait until the gun breaks. YMMV.

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