Considering the Snub Nose Reload - Spares Carry

**Norseman** · 01-26-20, 22:13

While admittedly not perfect, I prefer the 2-2 method with speed strips. 2 rounds, space, then 2 more with a space near the grab tab. The extra space helps me with grabbing/leverage when stripping rounds. Not the be all end all, but pretty workable in my world. 2-3 strips set up like this is pretty damn convenient in most clothing.

I’d still wager a bet that if there was a way to actually tabulate it, the j-frame is still one of, if not the most “actually “ carried CCW piece out there. But, getting folks to admit it, especially in today’s internet folk lore “your gonna lose if” world would probably be a bit of a challenge.

**Arik** · 01-27-20, 06:06

Originally Posted by Norseman

While admittedly not perfect, I prefer the 2-2 method with speed strips. 2 rounds, space, then 2 more with a space near the grab tab. The extra space helps me with grabbing/leverage when stripping rounds. Not the be all end all, but pretty workable in my world. 2-3 strips set up like this is pretty damn convenient in most clothing.

I’d still wager a bet that if there was a way to actually tabulate it, the j-frame is still one of, if not the most “actually “ carried CCW piece out there. But, getting folks to admit it, especially in today’s internet folk lore “your gonna lose if” world would probably be a bit of a challenge.

I think today it's largely been replaced by micro 380 semi autos. Lighter, thinner, smaller, more ammo and a reload is just as easily concealable

**ST911** · 01-27-20, 08:09

Originally Posted by Norseman

I’d still wager a bet that if there was a way to actually tabulate it, the j-frame is still one of, if not the most “actually “ carried CCW piece out there.

Originally Posted by Arik

I think today it's largely been replaced by micro 380 semi autos. Lighter, thinner, smaller, more ammo and a reload is just as easily concealable

Of actual carriers (not just owners), I'd give the edge to subcompact/micro autos in 9 and 380. Still, a strong presence by revolvers. Revolver carriers are over 40.

**Norseman** · 01-27-20, 08:27

Originally Posted by Arik

I think today it's largely been replaced by micro 380 semi autos. Lighter, thinner, smaller, more ammo and a reload is just as easily concealable

And you may very well be correct.

Over the years though, I have run into enough folks, and not just the boomer funds that everyone loves to hate, carrying these small frame revolvers. And in some cases it’s their only handgun. Most of the reasoning is based on simplicity. Couple that with the fact that these guns aren’t exactly sitting on shelves and still being produced by multiple manufacturers is enough to cause wonder. At least to me anyway.

Regardless, just an interesting thought exercise at best, but highly irrelevant in the grand scope.

**Uni-Vibe** · 01-30-20, 00:13

Y'all laugh all you want, but read the after action report on the FBI Miami shootout. One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents. Most of the agents were armed with revolvers. Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.

Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat. If your superior shooting skills don't get the job done in 5 or 6 rounds, and they very well might not, you will be killed trying to reload, too.

Five bangs, some clicks and your number is up. That's the reality, rather than some carefully crafted scenario in which you deftly whack one or more mass shooters with a j frame.

**motor51** · 01-30-20, 01:50

Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe

Y'all laugh all you want, but read the after action report on the FBI Miami shootout. One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents. Most of the agents were armed with revolvers. Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.

Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat. If your superior shooting skills don't get the job done in 5 or 6 rounds, and they very well might not, you will be killed trying to reload, too.

Five bangs, some clicks and your number is up. That's the reality, rather than some carefully crafted scenario in which you deftly whack one or more mass shooters with a j frame.

There was also 3 agents there with a semi auto 9mm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

**LowSpeed_HighDrag** · 01-30-20, 02:50

Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe

Y'all laugh all you want, but read the after action report on the FBI Miami shootout. One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents. Most of the agents were armed with revolvers. Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.

Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat. If your superior shooting skills don't get the job done in 5 or 6 rounds, and they very well might not, you will be killed trying to reload, too.

Five bangs, some clicks and your number is up. That's the reality, rather than some carefully crafted scenario in which you deftly whack one or more mass shooters with a j frame.

Univibe,

When you post things like this, are you trying to positively contribute to this forum? I find it hard to believe that you are doing anything but deliberately being obtuse.

Let's break this gem of a post down...

This wasn't a chance encounter of a citizen armed with a J Frame against a badguy on the streets. This was a poorly executed attempt at a high risk stop on Platt and Matix. Both of whom were highly trained Vietnam veterans, armed to the absolute teeth, and had already committed murders and armed robberies. This was a meeting of old school/outdated gear and tactics against two very bad men. 1986 Miami, 1997 N. Hollywood, 1999 Columbine, etc are all examples of this and how law enforcement has had to update gear and tactics to stay relevant against an ever evolving threat. But okay, I'll bite...

One man with a mini 14 and some 30 round magazines took on 8 agents.

Well, Platt did have a Mini 14, the only rifle in the fight, and fired at least 42 very effective rounds (Ever had anyone pin you down with accurate and high volume rifle fire Univibe? Ever tried to return fire with your semi-auto pistol in that circumstance?). He also had two revolvers which he fired. Matix had a 12g pump, which he also fired before getting taken out of the fight. One of the biggest weapons these guys had in the fight was their Monte Carlo, which they used effectively to completely throw off the FBI agents. By ramming the agents, they removed numerous guns from the fight, but you fail to mention this.

Most of the agents were armed with revolvers.

FBI Guns in the fight:
3x 9mm
5x 357/38
1x 870

Interesting to note, which you failed to mention, Agent Risner expended a full magazine of 9mm from his Model 459 before drawing a BUG Model 60 and firing a round.

Facing a determined criminal or mass shooter, you'll be in the same boat.

So here's the crux, what responsible citizen is conducting poorly coordinated high risk vehicle stops with a revolver? That's right Mr Univibe, no one is, so your point here is way off mark. There are obvious lessons for anyone who carries a gun, especially law enforcement officers, from the 86 shootout, but your point that this somehow translates to throwing a J Frame into a pocket and running to the grocery store is somehow the same as this situation is ridiculous.

That's the reality

Reality. It's interesting that you use that word, because as Inigo Montoya might say, "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means". Here's the Webster's definition: the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

Things as they actually exist, not a notional idea of them. The things you have posted are some strange fantasy, nay, notional idea of the world, and are not based in the state of things as they actually exist.

So now I need to ask, can you quantify your statements based off of YOUR real world experience? Your years as an operator, police officer, or unlucky concealed carrier in the mean streets? The armed confrontations you've been in, the gunfights you've exchanged ammo in, the high risk stops you've done on know armed felons, etc? Because here's the reality, many of us on this forum have real world experience in this, and see right through your posts.

Several were shot when they ran out of ammo and were trying to reload.

You're right, many were. Many lost their handguns in the initial ramming too. So if your point is that a revolver is a terrible primary duty sidearm for confronting modern badguys, then you are damn right. I carry a Glock 34 w/RMR and X300U, 3x +2 magazines, a J Frame, and a Colt 6933 in my rack, and even all of that may not be enough loadout for a gunfight with today's Platt and Matix.

But that's not your point is it? The point you are making is that a J frame is going to get you killed in a gunfight. And that, again, has absolutely no basis in reality.

So for those who carry a J Frame because they wouldn't carry a gun otherwise, I say thank you for being a responsible armed citizen. Please carry a reload and practice doing it under time. Practice 25yd shots, and drawing your J Frame. If the day comes where you, God forbid, need it, you'll be happy you took the time to learn how to use your snubnose. If someone tries to shame you into carrying a bigger semi-auto, which in turn causes you to leave it at home more often than not, rethink their message and their experiences. Obviously, a Glock 19, light, and reload are optimal for many situations, but the REALITY is we carry what we carry when we can carry it. If I have a Glock 19 on me, and Univibe is asking me to roll Platt and Matix, I'm gonna pass before I can get alot of friends with an MRAP and some big bore guns.

Maybe any kind of pistol wasn't appropriate for Platt and Matix. Maybe any kind of pistol wasn't appropriate for Phillips and Mătăsăreanu. Maybe using shootouts like this to deter people from carrying is silly.

But hey, what do I know?

**Arik** · 01-30-20, 06:59

LowSpeed already covered most of it but I'll just add that.

One agent with a semi auto lost his glasses and possibly wasn't able to see clearly enough to be effective although landed at least 2 hits.
One agent was killed trying to get his semi auto un-jammed.
One agent ran out of ammo in his semi auto and used a revolver.

Grogan- semi auto 9mm. Fired 9 rounds. Killed by 223 to the chest
Dove- semi auto 9mm. Fired over 20 rounds. Killed by 223 headshot
Risner- semi auto 9mm. Fired 14 rounds + 1 38spl from a S&W model 60 J frame. Lived.

One agent did not fire any shots because he lost his gun in the initial vehicle impact.

One bad guy was out almost immediately when he was hit in the head and neck from a revolver. The other was hit pretty good. The 9mm bullet fired from a semi auto penetrated his upper arm, chest, collapsing a lung and stopping an inch from his heart. but continued to fight. Autopsy showed his chest cavity filled with 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting massive damage to the main blood vessels in the lung. One of his MANY wounds. He was shot TWO more times from a 9mm semi auto, climbing over a the hood of a car.

The gun fight ended when an agent fired six shots from his revolver. Missing first 2 shots. 3rd hitting Matrix in the face. 4th and 5th also hitting Matrix in the face and severing the spinal cord. 6th round hitting Platt in the chest.

Gun fight lasted under 5 min with about 145 rounds fired. There was at least 43 rounds of 9mm fired from semi autos in under 5 minutes from 3 separate people from 3 different positions.

Two agents killed and 5 wounded mainly by ONE very aggressive and very determined perpetrator who was shot TWELVE TIMES. Platt served as an Army Ranger in Vietnam.

And if you're using this as your bases for carrying a semi auto vs a revolver then you should also consider having at least 10 armed friends with you at all times. And another thing. If you're using extreme cases like this the what are you going to do with your 9mm when two heavily armed guys with full auto rifles, wearing 3 layers of body armor roll up on you?

**joedirt199** · 01-30-20, 07:05

And that example is from 1986 when most LEO were still carrying revolver or transitioning to semi autos. I will fill you guys in on a class we had with an FBI profiler/statistician who came to our department to teach us about the criminal mindset. Pretty interesting stuff but again all his examples were very dated and it seems the FBI does not put alot of stock in that division to keep it current. Need my laptop and not a phone to type it all up.