22 Revolver for self defense--ammo selection

[Frailer]

In an intro to handgun class last week this came up. The student relayed that he was told by the gun counter jockey that you cannot use a 22 for self defense because it wont kill anyone. I asked him if he wanted to be shot in the chest with a 22? ...

I don't wish to be a curmudgeon, but I wish people would quit saying this and then acting as if they'd said something clever.

The fact that I don't wish to be shot with something doesn't mean it's a good choice to resolve a life or death situation. I, for one, won't volunteer to get shot with a BB gun or poked with a sharp stick. Yes, either would be preferable to being shot with a .22, but if I had to choose between being shot with a .22 or a 10mm I'd certainly pick the former.

A more reasonable argument might be that .22s have proven adequate in thousands of self-defense situations.

[williejc]

Stopping an assailant is the issue. If he dies later after having been shot is not a consideration in self defense shootings. He may beat the hell out of you, cut your throat, or shoot you before he expires from a .22 slug, and both you and he might be in the same morgue. My opinion is that we can substitute .25, .32, .380, and perhaps .38 for the number .22 and still have an accurate statement. Except for .25 acp I've carried all calibers referred to in the post, but I never deluded myself that I was well armed.

Whereas I might surrender if hit with an air rifle pellet, some will become enraged and act accordingly when shot with a lesser caliber. I have personal knowledge of such an event described by Ayoob in a periodical some 20 years ago. Before the bad guy died, he killed one detective and picked up and threw the other one across a room. He had been shot with a Smith 2 inch 38. If I can locate the article, I'll cite it. I had met the bad guy previously.

[Frailer]

Stopping an assailant is the issue. If he dies later after having been shot is not a consideration in self defense shootings. He may beat the hell out of you, cut your throat, or shoot you before he expires from a .22 slug, and both you and he might be in the same morgue. My opinion is that we can substitute .25, .32, .380, and perhaps .38 for the number .22 and still have an accurate statement. Except for .25 acp I've carried all calibers referred to in the post, but I never deluded myself that I was well armed.

Whereas I might surrender if hit with an air rifle pellet, some will become enraged and act accordingly when shot with a lesser caliber. I have personal knowledge of such an event described by Ayoob in a periodical some 20 years ago. Before the bad guy died, he killed one detective and picked up and threw the other one across a room. He had been shot with a Smith 2 inch 38. If I can locate the article, I'll cite it. I had met the bad guy previously.

Here's a guy that soaked up more than a dozen hits with .45 ACP:

http://www.policeone.com/police-hero...mo-on-the-job/

Despite the coverage that such exceedingly rare incidents get, most guys *do* stop doing bad things when they take a couple of rounds, regardless of the caliber. Hell, showing them a gun will do the job more often than not. We can play "what if" games all day long, and we'll either all start carrying AR-10s to the 7-11, or we'll come to the realization that such activity is pointless.

Bottom line: carry a gun.

[FishTaco]

Very interesting article. Instead of carrying 147 rounds of 9MM he could probably carry about 800 rounds of .22 LR. Since it seems to take a head shot to put a BG down, I can't see why he's even bothering with centerfire cartridges.

[williejc]

According to published research, the consensus is that bullets stop assailants by causing rapid blood loss or disrupting neural activity within a major nerve complex or some combination of each. Findings indicate that these events are most likely to occur if the shooter uses a caliber that will bring about physiologically disabling wounds. But, the shooter must be using ammunition that will at least penetrate a minimum distance and at the same time produce a wound channel with minimum diameter.

.22 lr, .22 mag, .25 acp, .32 acp, .380 acp, .38 spl fmj or lead, 9mm Luger fmj, 357 Sig fmj, 40 S&W fmj, and .45 acp fmj ammo fail either the penetration requirement, wound channel diameter requirement, or both. Yes, they will all kill. Recent military combat has shown that our current 5.56mm bullets often fail to tumble or fragment at M4 level velocities. They can pass through the enemy who continues to fight before he later dies.

I feel better having a .22 than nothing, but wish to emphasize that I fully understand that I am poorly armed. Pulling out a weapon to frighten the other guy very likely will result in a trip to jail, or worse, he or she may take it away from me or you. Considering how many criminals are drug addicted and mentally ill, can we assume that they will just quit if wounded. They might not even realize that they are hit.

[FishTaco]

Pulling out a weapon to frighten the other guy very likely will result in a trip to jail, or worse, he or she may take it away from me or you.

If some chick takes away my .22 after I wave it around to scare her, I'm going to switch back to wine coolers.

[williejc]

I wish not to give examples, but many here have seen some chicks beat the hell out of guys, cut them, shoot them, run over them, stick ice picks into, set on fire, and so on. Remember also, that mean chicks run with other mean chicks, and you may encounter two or more. Some guys may not know that if a female were to "jump" them at or around a bar scene, giving the girl an ass whipping would piss off everybody else--resulting in their being stomped in the ground literally. You won't encounter these folks in college kid bars. Many towns have bars that don't call the law because it's bad for business since most there are whores, pimps, drug dealers, ex offenders, and those who should be locked up but are not.

Keep your .22 in your pocket.

[FishTaco]

Those are all good points. I tend not to hang out in places with chicks that are that tough or mean. Thank God....

[johnnywitt]

Ok, so I came across this Youtube Video from shootingthebull on the best .22LR out of a NAA Mini Revolver IN GEL. I figure that my 1 7/8" S&W J Frames will have slightly increased performance over the NAA's. As I anecdotally experienced shooting propane container behind the house, the Aguila 60gr SSS (which I really like otherwise) didn't make the grade in a short barrel J Frame with regard to penetration & surprisingly, the 40gr Solids weren't always the best for penetration like I thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyR1K92pyq4

[C-grunt]

Was just talking about this topic tonight.

In my experience being a cop I have noticed that the .40 and .45 are not as powerful as people think and the .22lr is more powerful than people think.

I've seen it kill people pretty efficiently. I've seen it penetrate thick facial bones. Basically it has actually kind of impressed me. I personally wouldn't carry one but I wouldn't discount one at all.