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Thread: New Rifle, First Range Trip but Only 25 Yards

  1. #21
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    Long day at the range! The 25-yard range I was planning on going to makes you buy their "special" ammunition. I buy ammo in bulk so I can avoid paying inflated prices at the range. So I wound up making the 2-hour hike out to an outdoor range that goes out to 50/100 yards and shot my very first AR (first rifle period, for that matter) at the 50-yard line.



    Here's the rifle: Noveske 16" Gen III.



    Ammo was Federal/Lake City XM193, 55gr.



    Without worrying about trying to zero the iron sights, I decided to just see what would happen. Here's my very first 10 rounds ever.



    I then put up one of the 50-yard zero targets. Looks like a similar group.



    Adjusted the sights a little bit. I could adjust windage on the rear sight, no problem. But the front sight proved very difficult to adjust. I couldn't get a bullet tip or anything down into it to turn it. So I couldn't adjust elevation. I wound up having to just do "hold unders" all day. I will have to buy one of those tools to adjust the front elevation.

    Groups:







    Last group of the day. I think I was getting tired at this point. Group opened up a lot.



    Here's what the cardboard looked like by the end of the day. I think I shot about 150-200 rounds.



    So... I don't know how this is supposed to look. I tried shooting with the stock at different positions to see what worked and what didn't. I think I liked it either at the 2nd to last notch or one in from there. Nose definitely wasn't anywhere near the charging handle. And the angle of the pistol grip is very painful on my wrist (I was shooting at a bench, the range doesn't allow standing or prone). No bags or anything. I propped up the rifle on some wood blocks that were covered in carpet that the range had. So how's it look? Good? Bad? Any way to tell what I can do to improve by just looking at the groups, like you can with a handgun?

    Honestly, I couldn't even see the target really. Just had to position the sights where I thought was maybe possibly kinda sorta the bullseye. But I had a lot of fun!

  2. #22
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    25yds=22.86m Close enough to check function of rifle, ejection pattern, lock-back of mags, and to enjoy new rifle. Not trying to get in on zero debate, but what is rifle going to be used for? Self/home defense or precision and what kind of ammo, with what length/twist of barrel will also play into short-to-long range zero. As mentioned stickies https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...d-Trajectories
    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...100-Meter-Zero
    Pick best setup for your rifle/ammo/purpose..... And take a carbine class. Oh Ya and slap a light on that bad boy if it's for defense.
    ETA: LOL, you posted while I was typing
    Last edited by lunchbox; 11-08-14 at 23:45.
    ^^ Read with southern accent !^^ and blame all grammatical errors on Alabama's public school system.
    Technique is nothing more than failed style. Cecil B DeMented
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  3. #23
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    You can get a rough zero at 25 yards. I look for a Point of Impact of 1" below the Point of Aim at 25 yards. That will get you in the general neighborhood when you are able to shoot at greater distances, but it is not a guarantee you will be on the money when you shoot at 50 & 100 yards.

    Even if you zero at 50 yards, it is a rough zero and you will need to verify your zero at 100 yards and 200 yards. If you change ammunition you want to check zero again.

    A bench is a good way to check the accuracy potential of a firearm/ammunition combination, but I would not expend a lot of rounds off the bench once zeroed. There is no substitute for shooting from the prone, sitting and standing positions. I have seen people zero their carbine on the bench and the POI was different once they moved to the prone or sitting position.

    Your first target looks pretty good. Where were you holding the top of the front sight when you shot?

    I think M193 shoots better than some people think. It shoots better out of some carbines than others. Here is an example of a 5 shot carbine iron sight zero confirmation at 56 yards with M193 from the prone position.
    Last edited by T2C; 11-09-14 at 00:24.
    Train 2 Win

  4. #24
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    I've used 25 yards to get 50 and 100 yard zeros.

    While it isn't a substitute for zeroing them at a 50-100 yards, you'll be pretty damn close and definitely on the paper.
    In the future, PMAGs will be the currency standard.

  5. #25
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    Not bad shooting for first outing with a rifle.
    ^^ Read with southern accent !^^ and blame all grammatical errors on Alabama's public school system.
    Technique is nothing more than failed style. Cecil B DeMented
    "If you can't eat it or hump it, piss on it and walk away."-Dog
    Go where the food is.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    A bench is a good way to check the accuracy potential of a firearm/ammunition combination, but I would not expend a lot of rounds off the bench once zeroed. There is no substitute for shooting from the prone, sitting and standing positions. I have seen people zero their carbine on the bench and the POI was different once they moved to the prone or sitting position.
    The ranges I have access to do NOT allow you to shoot standing or prone. Only from a bench. It sucks. But I have nowhere else to shoot. I'd much rather shoot metal plates and gongs and x-mas trees and be able to move around. But... that doesn't exist here.

    Your first target looks pretty good. Where were you holding the top of the front sight when you shot?
    Really? I think some of the other targets look a lot better... Groups 6 and 7 are much tighter, no? But for group 1 (the very first target I posted), I had the bullseye right on the tip of the front sight (6:00 hold).

    I think M193 shoots better than some people think. It shoots better out of some carbines than others. Here is an example of a 5 shot carbine iron sight zero confirmation at 56 yards with M193 from the prone position.
    How accurate can you really be with iron sights anyway? Even at 50 yards, there was no way for me to see where my POA was beyond "it's touching the general center of the paper somewhere." Blink your eyes and the POI shifts over two inches.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox View Post
    Not bad shooting for first outing with a rifle.
    It was fun! I have no idea what I'm doing.
    Last edited by FourT6and2; 11-09-14 at 00:46.

  7. #27
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    Your accuracy potential with iron sights is only limited by your ability to be consistent. Never feel like you're being limited by your sights. You're actually shooting very well for someone who's never owned an AR before, so keep working on your fundamentals and you'll continue to see improvement.

    As others have said, I'd recommend getting into a basic carbine class from a reputable instructor before you start developing bad habits. You can save yourself a lot of ass pain now learning how to do it right the first time.

    Nice rifle, by the way.
    Last edited by GTF425; 11-09-14 at 08:09.

  8. #28
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    First time with a rifle period? No coach correcting technique? I'd say you are doing great. Very consistent. Especially for untrained with irons.
    The beasts of modernism have mutated into the beasts of postmodernism—relativism into nihilism, amorality into immorality, irrationality into insanity, sexual deviancy into polymorphous perversity. And since then, generations of intelligent students under the guidance of their enlightened professors have looked into the abyss, have contemplated those beasts, and have said, “How interesting, how exciting.”

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  9. #29
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    Op,

    You work with what they will let you do on the range. If I read correctly that you were using 6 o'clock hold, the POI of the M193 shot on Target 1 appears to be 8"-9" higher than your POA. You could easily rotate the front sight up 1 full turn to move toward a zero. The comment I made about it being a good group relates to being the first group you shot without warming up.

    To find a good starting point for your best personal buttstock position take your unloaded carbine, bend your strong side arm 90 degrees, rest the buttstock against the lower part of your bicep and see if you can comfortably reach the grip and trigger. If you have to stretch to reach the grip and trigger, the stock is adjusted too long. If you feel cramped, the stock is adjusted too short. This will give you a good starting point.

    Without any guidance or training, I think you did well for your first outing.
    Last edited by T2C; 11-09-14 at 10:30.
    Train 2 Win

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTF425 View Post
    Your accuracy potential with iron sights is only limited by your ability to be consistent. Never feel like you're being limited by your sights. You're actually shooting very well for someone who's never owned an AR before, so keep working on your fundamentals and you'll continue to see improvement.

    As others have said, I'd recommend getting into a basic carbine class from a reputable instructor before you start developing bad habits. You can save yourself a lot of ass pain now learning how to do it right the first time.

    Nice rifle, by the way.
    I will definitely seek out a class of some sort. People keep recommended Appleseed. But they suggest you bring a lot of gear and supplies I don't have. If there's a basic carbine marksmanship course around here, I'll do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by uffdaphil View Post
    First time with a rifle period? No coach correcting technique? I'd say you are doing great. Very consistent. Especially for untrained with irons.
    Yeah, I just sort of inferred what I should be doing based on what I've read online and the fundamental principles from shooting pistol. Principles are principle. They should hold true regardless of what gun you're shooting. But I'm sure there are other things I need to pay attention to that I don't even know exist. Hopefully I can take a class.

    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    Op,

    You work with what they will let you do on the range. If I read correctly that you were using 6 o'clock hold, the POI of the M193 shot on Target 1 appears to be 8"-9" higher than your POA. You could easily rotate the front sight up 1 full turn to move toward a zero. The comment I made about it being a good group relates to being the first group you shot without warming up.
    Ahh, I understand. Yeah, I tried adjusting the front sight but couldn't get anything down in there to do it. I will get one of those castle sight tools for like $5 and see if that is easier. From the sight-in target, I needed to make about 14-16 "clicks" of adjustment, since each one is 1/2 MOA. I think that's what it's saying. But I just tried to aim low for the rest of the day.

    To find a good starting point for your best personal buttstock position take your unloaded carbine, bend your strong side arm 90 degrees, rest the buttstock against the lower part of your bicep and see if you can comfortably reach the grip and trigger. If you have to stretch to reach the grip and trigger, the stock is adjusted too long. If you feel cramped, the stock is adjusted too short. This will give you a good starting point.
    Sweet, thanks! I will try this.
    Last edited by FourT6and2; 11-09-14 at 11:27.

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