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Thread: New Rifle, First Range Trip but Only 25 Yards

  1. #41
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    What is the the minimum recommended zero that carries to a longer one. I have watched SO many videos out there and just seen so many opinions. Didn't Paul Howe do one at 7 yards? It's been a while since I read into all of it. Just curious as I am sure the OP is.

    edit: nvm I just saw Failure's post up a bit of ways and read it again.
    Last edited by St.Michael; 11-10-14 at 02:24.
    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Don't count on anything you don't sleep with attached to your body to be present when you have to fight for your life.
    I will never get to train as much as I want to. So when I do I need to make it count.
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  2. #42
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    I don't think there is anything wrong with a 25 yd zero. I think it can be
    more than just a get on paper zero. For most people these are fighting
    carbines and not precision rifles unless your shooting a mark 12 or a
    custom precision build. There is something to be said about learning
    instinctual shooting and knowing hold overs and judging distance.
    My rifle has a 25 yd zero and this is at 50 yds and at 100 my grouping
    opens just just slightly more. It's good enough for me.

    Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.
    C. S. Lewis

    Yes I even own the Magpul iPhone cover. Wanna make something of it?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
    Just so I'm on the same page, 2 MOA would be a 2" x 2" square @ 50 yards?

    The red bullseye on the 50-yard test target I used was 4 MOA. The green was 2, I think. I'd be happy with 4 at this point. That's my current goal.
    2 MOA is 2" circle at 100 yds. 2 MOA at 50 yds is a 1" circle. Think of MOA (minute of angle) as a pair of lines representing an angle exiting your barrel. The distance between the lines that start together at the muzzle gets progressively wider the further from the muzzle you measure it. 1 MOA is 1" at 100yds, 2" at 200, 3" at 300..... Example- If you shot a group with all bullets landing within a 1" circle at 50 yds it would be a 2 MOA group. If you shot another target at 200 yds and all of the bullets land within a 4" circle its still a 2 MOA group. If shooting at 25 yds and your goal is 4 MOA all bullets should impact within a 1" diameter circle.
    Last edited by GH41; 11-10-14 at 07:23.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunchbox View Post
    And in addition to being very knowledgable and experienced, F2S is modest. He's one of our resident Bad-Asses.

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...he-Bronze-Star

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...Stop-on-KAC-TV
    Thank you for posting these links. When F2S posts, you know you're getting it straight.

  5. #45
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    4 MOA at 100 yards is a good goal. Improvement is always a good goal. One of the dry firing exercises that helps me improve is folding an index card in half, so it can stand on a table, shelf, etc, and I place a small black dot on the card with a fine point sharpie. The idea is to make the dot small enough that when you line up on the card, at whatever distance you have available, you could fit 6 or 8 of them on the top of your front sight post. This way you practice bisecting your FSP with a tiny target. This is similar to how a 12" target will appear at 300 meters.

    Clear your gun and put the ammo away. Get a stable position, practice the fundamentals, and squeeze the trigger while avoiding disturbance of your sight picture. If I'm really chasing accuracy I will do this at the range as well before firing my groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
    Just so I'm on the same page, 2 MOA would be a 2" x 2" square @ 50 yards?

    The red bullseye on the 50-yard test target I used was 4 MOA. The green was 2, I think. I'd be happy with 4 at this point. That's my current goal.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honorthecall81 View Post
    I don't think there is anything wrong with a 25 yd zero. I think it can be
    more than just a get on paper zero
    Yes, a shooter needs to know their hold overs at 25 yards and in. If all you've got to shoot at is a 25 yard range then shoot it. But if you want to know what your rifle is doing, make the effort to shoot it at 100 - 300 yards to refine your zero. A group can look like it's dead on at 25 yards and be off by an inch or even two at 100. A group at 25 yards can be off, say a half inch and look like it's good enough, but that's four inches at 100.

    Shooters that limit themselves to 25 or 50 yards and in are depriving themselves of a lot of important knowledge. There are experienced AR shooters that don't think a 10.5 inch barrel is very effective at 200 yards because they've never tried it. I get 2 - 4 inch 5 shot groups (depending on ammo) with my 10.5 inch shorty with a 4 MOA dot at 200 yards. Checking it's POA/POI at 200 yards refined POA/POI at CQB ranges. It's the difference between knowing where the bullet will impact versus thinking you know

    (For the noobies-
    POA is Point of Aim
    POI is Point of Impact)
    Last edited by MistWolf; 11-10-14 at 14:15.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by GH41 View Post
    2 MOA is 2" circle at 100 yds. 2 MOA at 50 yds is a 1" circle. Think of MOA (minute of angle) as a pair of lines representing an angle exiting your barrel. The distance between the lines that start together at the muzzle gets progressively wider the further from the muzzle you measure it. 1 MOA is 1" at 100yds, 2" at 200, 3" at 300..... Example- If you shot a group with all bullets landing within a 1" circle at 50 yds it would be a 2 MOA group. If you shot another target at 200 yds and all of the bullets land within a 4" circle its still a 2 MOA group. If shooting at 25 yds and your goal is 4 MOA all bullets should impact within a 1" diameter circle.
    Wait, but the target I used said the red circle is 4 MOA @ 50 yards. And each square is 1" x 1", so that means the red circle is 4". The green circle is 2 MOA @ 50 yards and measures 2". But according to what you just said, it would make the red circle 8 MOA and the green 4 MOA? If you read the target info at the top it explains it.


  8. #48
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    Forgot another important aspect of zeroing:
    Precise distance to target requirement.

    Here's an example; 16" shooting Mk 262 with a desired 100 meter zero, you can have an error in range of 32 meters short, or 12 meters long and still be within 0.1 inches of correct group position.
    With a 25 meter zero (POA/POI), you are 0.3 inches in error if you are 3 meters in error in distance.
    With a 10 meter zero, even with a 1.9" group offset, an error of 1 meter in distance will put your group center off by 0.3 inches.
    Zeroing at the culminating point of the projectile gives you more distance that the projectile is hanging out with POA/POI intersection, and even if you are doing an offset zero you can achieve more, easier, by refining the zero at around 100 meters/yards.

    Now, it's easy to say that you won't err by 1-3 meters, however; many forget that their sights adjust from the center of the optic, not from the end of the barrel. This is not an issue with a longer distance zeroing scheme. Many do not have to proper tools for accurate ranging at close distances, as many range-finders are accurate to within 1 yard/meter. Running ground distance can incur error if the tape is not kept taut and level from muzzle to target. Again, these are not problems if you can get a target out to around 100 meters.

    I really don't care how one chooses to zero their rifles, and if you are happy with what you have, good for you. I'm not telling anyone that they should change, I am simply working to educate those that are not fully comfortable with the process, and to counter advice that I have found to give sub-optimal result.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
    Wait, but the target I used said the red circle is 4 MOA @ 50 yards. And each square is 1" x 1", so that means the red circle is 4". The green circle is 2 MOA @ 50 yards and measures 2". But according to what you just said, it would make the red circle 8 MOA and the green 4 MOA? If you read the target info at the top it explains it.

    1 MOA is 1.047 inches at 100 yards.
    This can be simplified to 1" at 100 yards.
    It is an angular measurement, therefore, 1 MOA is:
    0.25" at 25 yards
    0.5" at 50 yards
    1.0" at 100 yards
    2.0" at 200 yards
    5.0" at 500 yards
    etc.

    1/2 MOA would be half those values, and 2 MOA would be double those values.

    At 50 yards:
    1/2 MOA= 0.25"
    1 MOA= 0.5"
    2 MOA= 1.0"
    4 MOA= 2.0"

    EDITED:
    Squares are 1/2", as noted below.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
    Wait, but the target I used said the red circle is 4 MOA @ 50 yards. And each square is 1" x 1", so that means the red circle is 4". The green circle is 2 MOA @ 50 yards and measures 2". But according to what you just said, it would make the red circle 8 MOA and the green 4 MOA? If you read the target info at the top it explains it.

    http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...lm-d85rqqz.jpg
    The squares on that target are 1/2", not 1".
    Will - Owner of Arisaka LLC - http://www.arisakadefense.com

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