How a stressed memeber trigger module changes the function of a SCAR

[JPB]

Seems to me that if Handl designed this product to improve function as described here, it would be something that would be advertised in conjunction with said product, not hidden away. I know that if I designed something to have a certain set of design improvements over on OEM unit I would want that info on display (advertising) in effort to convince the buying public to purchase my product.

[IKEWarrior04]

ALCON,

This thread is to answer questions about how a stressed member trigger module (Handl) in conjunction with a metal hinge changes the function of a SCAR (mk.17/17s).

#1 If you can find slow motion video of a SCAR firing from say the 4-5 o'clock or 1-2 o'clock position. I suggest you watch it before delving in. While watching watch the flex of upper receiver while the gun cycles.

#2 What I understand from the Handl guys, is the compression of the recoil spring then impact of the BCG against the base plate of the buttstock is what they call an "elastic collision". Think about slapping ghetto booty, it jiggles. If she is thick enough and you slap hard enough, her back, gut and legs will jiggle a bit too.

Now go slap the ass of a chick who is a gymnast or cross fitter. It doesn't move, it absorbs the slap (recoil). The density of the material and its tighter construction means those jiggles (secondary recoil impulses that eat optics/nvgs) don't have anywhere the same intensity. While they do not disappear completely they are hard to notice.

#3 Going back to #1 the upper receiver is the only rigid part of the gun that actually deals with recoil and not very much. The back end of the gun is all polymer taking the hits of the BCG. The guide rod retaining plate actually can act like a springboard for recoil. The stock base plate being polymer does not help with efficient return spring action. The polymer trigger module does not put any reward pressure on the baseplate nor does any of the alloy replacement other than the Handl.

The back of a SCAR is Ghetto booty, loose and sloppy.

#4 The Handl trigger module puts rearward pressure on the guide rod retaining plate. It has some changes to the dimensions and thickness of certain parts. This is in order to make the distance between the take down pin in front and the guide rod retaining plate is fixed and more importantly has pressure against the retaining plate.

#5 The buttstock base plate flexes under recoil, it transmits some of the recoil into the gun that should be going into the spring. The Handl baseplate changes that. It allows the recoil spring to work more effectively and absorb the recoil. It reduces the secondary recoil impulses into the gun (which was killing optics and NVG's)

The back end of a Handl equipped SCAR is tight like a 18 year old girls gymnastics gold medalists butt.

look at the movement in the gun between the two videos

In video #1 watch at about 5 minutes smooth during controlled pairs, recoil is straight back and up. This gun WAS NOT equipped the a stock base plate. Which IMO goes a real long way in improving the recoil management. But the effect of having a stressed member trigger module will become real apparent after video two.

http://youtu.be/8GxwVicY8SI

In video #2 look at the flex and movement in the gun, no way an accurate controlled pair is gonna happen with that. Just replacing polymer with alloy, no real improvement.

http://youtu.be/h1Y4DNLPNWk

#6 I hope this information brings clarity for those who have asked.

FOX33,

In video #1 the SCAR17s equipped with a Handl trigger module had a FSC30 muzzle device which is a muzzle break

Video #2 the SCAR17s equipped with a Stryker Enterprises trigger module had a Surefire flash suppressor according to the description.

The claim is that the SCAR in video #1 has better recoil management than the SCAR in video #2 because the Handl trigger module is stressed and the Stryker Enterprises trigger module is not. You can not compare the recoil on the two weapons because of the muzzle break. Next time ask Alan Handl to do a video without the muzzle break. Only then can we truly compare the two and note the differences, if any at all.

Ohh, and while you're at it, suggest to him that he spell check and proof read what he allows on the Handl Defense Facebook page and website.

[July Johnson]

The amount of alchemy in this thread is painful to read. No proof of a claim is showed and the reference to ghetto booty and how it is compared to recoil made me LOL. Watched the videos and black gun is a semi-automatic with a muzzle break installed and the brown one is a machine gun with a flash hider. The brown machine gun with the flash hider will not be as easy to shoot as the semi auto gun with a muzzle break. Muzzle break does more to tame recoil than a piece of aluminum between the stock and the gun. A lower, or stock plate made of aluminum does nothing to reduce gun recoil. If this guy says was true, every bolt action rifle would have butt pad made of aluminum instead of a plastic or rubber one. The side show comment is a great. Handle is home based. A simple Google search showed this. It's a house. Searched FN too and those places look like real companies. The same video showed the black rifle being shot into a red steel box bullet trap next to a laundry sink, in what looks like a basement. Another video looks like a garage with a parked motorcycle in the video.

[July Johnson]

#1 I tried to convince Alan Handl again, no luck. So I am going to buy an accelerometer. I remember what I was shown, I will do my best to replicate it. I will post it up here.

#2 On the REV-engineering thing: Well look at that picture I attached. It is a screen shot of the email traffic (critical data blacked out) from the FBI in relation to what transpired on FNFourms. I don't want to clog this thread with that shitshow.

But you got a guy called by a rank he never earned, implied service in the USMC, has accusations of every kind of wrong donging (both criminal and civil) Who owns a business but freaks out when his name gets used in the open, then the FBI says this (take good look at the back end of those email addresses). So what is a principled man supposed to do? Why do you think I won't let it go?

If Bernie Madoff was managing your 401K and I knew it, wouldn't I be culpable if I said nothing. It is statistically possible I am wrong, but maybe the next time he calls my unit crying we can discuss it.

#3 Back on task, It will take me awhile to get this all sorted out. I am going to need some time to get the data all together.

Missed this.

Accelerometer can be bought for $20 on the internet. They don't do much good themselves so this looks like more sideshow. This guy calls himself a former marine? Accusations are one thing but has this guy been charged with any crime? Who rev-engineered the handle lower, this guy? It doesn't say in the picture. Just says based on the info that was sent to the FBI, it was rev-engineered.

#3 is going to be as funny as this.... looking forward to that stuff too.

[July Johnson]

Company google search

http://companies.findthebest.com/l/3...c-in-Auburn-WA

Google map search

https://www.google.com/maps/place/11...1e3d283fd1b7d5

Where are all the big machines at?

[00stormbringer]

Company google search

http://companies.findthebest.com/l/3...c-in-Auburn-WA

Google map search

https://www.google.com/maps/place/11...1e3d283fd1b7d5

Where are all the big machines at?

You learn something new every day. I quess the only "stessed member's" are the ones who have to file through the hard coat anodizing to get the Handl lowers to fit.

[IKEWarrior04]

You learn something new every day. I quess the only "stessed member's" are the ones who have to file through the hard coat anodizing to get the Handl lowers to fit.

If the trigger module was designed to be tight, why wasn't that disclosed to consumers upon ordering? Customers got hit with a whole bunch of "Ohh, by the ways" that were addressed after the module hit the market by the ways of FAQs.

The module fitting tight, pmags not being optimal, the cerakoting having to be worn in.Why Cerakote over Hard Annodizing and not FDE hard anodizing BTW? Problem after problem showed up and soon Alan Handl disappeared and claimed its all FNForums fault. Well, the world is bigger than FNForums, Alan. We haven't heard from you since. Where are you and why won't you speak out on behalf of YOUR company?

[ScottsBad]

Fox33, from the beginning of this discussion many points have been made regarding our skepticism of your claims (I'm not even sure if they are Handl's claims.). Since the beginning of this thread I, and others, have posed many questions and concerns to you. As yet you have failed to adequately answer them. Why did you start this thread if you are not prepared to answer tough questions?

If the claims you make are indeed Handl's claims, I'd think Handl would be clamoring to join this discussion to make the case and maybe sell some lowers. If Handl can make the case to this audience he might really have a product worth considering.

[Fox33]

#1 Welcome July and IKE from FNFourms. This place is fair and equitable, and there are no favorites here. You will need to adjust to that.

#2 I will do testing with an accelerometer, to prove my case. So wait guys, I am sure the SEAL mod1 will be a stressed member as well, I am sure you'll like it then.

#3 So a guy does a video in his garage instead of the shop located in another state and that invalidates it?

#4 July- in reference to your comment about bolt action rifles with metal buttpads is as thin as your cover for action in here. AR rifles have a metal buffer tube, AK rifles have a metal guide rod, they are the part that absorbs recoil. They are not the part of the rifle that the shoulder indexes with, please try to keep up.

Now show any other 7.62 rifle that uses a polymer baseplate to act as the foundation of it's entire recoil system. Now show another 7.62 rifle that had NSWC crane say don't use these optics and PVS' on it because it will eat them. Now LOL all you want at my analogy, as it was meant for your level of intellect.

I did not want to get into the modulus of 7075 T6 vs magnesium vs polymer. Or to discuss how polymer's low modulus might amplify issues with the gun (the force of the recoil transmitted through low modulus items). The recoil must go somewhere, it does not just disappear. I do not think the compression of the BCG is going to ever reach the yield strength of Aluminum (6061 or 7075) under any condition.

(Disclaimer I am a medic by trade so sorry Engineering PhD's)

I have seen the buttstock baseplate fail during Handl's testing. There is a pic on their website just before one of them failed. It tells me that the recoil impulse can first of all reach the yield strength of the polymer under certain conditions. Which from what I remember they said is a compressive failure. That the load on the polymer has reached a point where the integrity of the surface of the polymer was was being diminished. That the stress and strain being a constant amount of force began the process of wearing that material down. That due to polymers elasticity that under heavy, rapid, loads that the elastic material was being stretched and being impacted while still under load, that this had a compounding effect over time. This eventually leads to failure and faster than alloy.

The Mk.16 was the main effort during design of the SCAR. The buttstock assembly is the same for either rifle. I think that when FN designed the gun, the recoil from the 5.56 round was not enough to give any inkling of what was to come. When the after thought of a 7.62x51 gun became the main effort things showed up that never did with the mk.16. While the hinge solves this mostly all on it is own the trigger module has a part to play.

From what I was told, that the upper receiver hinge plate also has a role in recoil impulses being transmitted back into the gun. That by keeping an alloy in a stressed member trigger module role had reduced this. I plan on proving all of this with information from the accelerometer I am ordering. I know this won't shut up the FNfourmastan pilgrims, but I hope others will find it useful.

[Fox33]

If the trigger module was designed to be tight, why wasn't that disclosed to consumers upon ordering? Customers got hit with a whole bunch of "Ohh, by the ways" that were addressed after the module hit the market by the ways of FAQs.

The module fitting tight, pmags not being optimal, the cerakoting having to be worn in.Why Cerakote over Hard Annodizing and not FDE hard anodizing BTW? Problem after problem showed up and soon Alan Handl disappeared and claimed its all FNForums fault. Well, the world is bigger than FNForums, Alan. We haven't heard from you since. Where are you and why won't you speak out on behalf of YOUR company?

#1 The trigger module was designed to be tight-the instructions call for mating with a rubber mallet to index the trigger module and the receiver hinge plate from day 1.

#2 If you owned a company would you respond to every navy E3 who wanted to pick an internet fight. Alan did not disappear from FNFourms, he was removed by the "ownership". Why don't you get Jim "Stolen Valor" Elmazi in here and he can speak up for his actions. Or maybe he can just call my Company SGM and my SGM can pass me the message again.

#3 The only reason I am out here is I saw what happened. The guy who did it first, got ambushed by the guy who wanted to "win" and his entourage. Libel and Slander with intent to profit.

#4 This is an issue between Alan Handl and Jim Elmazi honestly, we should be letting their lawyers figure all this out. While you guys like posting up my name, rank, and unit in order to intimidate me into shutting up about what I saw. I am going to tell the truth, it's not illegal. Can't sue for deformation when its true, and I have FBI agents, the Illinois state police, the companies he attacked, and the ownership of the companies Elmazi was fired from.

so go back to FNfourms where the truth is what you make it