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Thread: ATF Rulings, Letters, Opinions.......... and NFA Classifications

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
    Someone wanting to bring a new product to market that may be questionable would no doubt want clarification by ATF before proceeding with production and sinking a shit ton of money into it. So I can see an inventor wanting to see if it's "kosher". These subsequent, pestering, "Are you really really really sure this is okay?" letters are a detriment. So are YouTube videos showing the product being used in a way that flaunts it in ATF's face. The Sig Brace was okayed by ATF for use on an AR pistol and it should have been left at that. But nooooo, that wasn't good enough.
    Yep, I made that point in the other Sig thread. Unfortunately, most people don't get. Even some members here don't have the mental capacity to wrap their head around it. Some people just can't leave well enough alone. Gotta keep analyzing & questioning everything. Then there's the YouTubers & internet gossipers too.
    Like Scott said earlier, "let a sleeping dog lie."
    Quote Originally Posted by JSantoro View Post
    Stop dicking the dog, please. It's gross.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by softorchestra View Post

    I 'spose if this was so cut and dried and everyone knew exactly how the ATF would rule on a brace, or how their State would prosecute on one, this question wouldn't come up so often on the internet. But the fact of the matter is that even you don't know how they will prosecute on it, unless you've been charged for using one.

    The fact of the matter is that a ruling letter is an insight on the government's legal opinion on the matter and how it would be treated in court.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  3. #23
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    Here is my list:

    Just because something is legal at the time, doesn’t mean it is a smart, moral, ethical, or professional thing to do.

    Examples:

    1. A certain individual was “remaking” transferable MAC-10s into M1919s, M240s, and M60s using the MACs serial number welded to the receiver of the new gun. He was caught. This case is now pending in court.


    The result: NFA forms have to match exactly the configuration of your gun or else the transfer will be rejected with a correction letter. This is to prevent the gun from morphing into something it isn’t. Another result is the belt fed conversion for MACs was also banned. This is also why you can’t use a FNC sear in a SCAR. This also removed a bunch of transferables off the market as they were deemed contraband.

    2. Somebody made a pistol in 7.62x39

    The result: Steel core ammo in this chambering is now banned from import

    3. Some “industry professionals” were remaking each other silencers in a personal feud.

    The result: Silencers can no longer be remanufactured without paying a new transfer tax.

    4. Olympic arms was remaking PAWS converted Olympic M16 lowers. Olympic was not the manufacture of the MG.


    The result: You can no longer have a transferable gun remade, even by the OEM. Those modern Colts floating around on the market with a pre 1986 serial number cannot exist anymore.

    5. Idiots running around with post 2005 imported Benelli and Saiga shotguns that are not compliant with the import ban.


    The result: We now have an ATF 2011 shotgun study that seeks to ban these guns completely. The shotgun study wants to ban weapon lights on imported shotguns.

    6. Idiots made an AK pistol in 5.45.

    The result: 7n6 ammo is banned from import.

    7. NFATCA engages the ATF about CLEO signature.

    The result: Now we are about to have CLEO signature on every NFA transfer type.

    8. Idiot wrote letter in 2004 about greater than 5 round magazines on Benelli shotguns.

    The Result: Benelli shotgun extensions are no longer on the market. Seen a factory 4 round one for sale on gunbroker recently? How much did it sell for?

    In every one of these cases, people stirred the shit pot doing unethical, stupid, or unprofessional activity and gave the ATF an excuse to ban something. I have provided 8 high profile examples of this from the past 20 years.

    We are not on the same level of pedestal as the ATF. They hold all the power. Some of our people think they are engaged in a “gentleman’s discourse” with the ATF. We are not.

    They don’t care. They don’t have to answer to us. It is their job to “find” things or activity to ban. That is how they justify their jobs and authority.

    Some people just cannot grasp this. Some people defend idiot gun owners and manufactures to the death, even if it means putting our rights in jeopardy. Even if it means losing our rights to prove some theoretical political point.

    Some people just don’t have the smarts lay low or not attract unwanted attention.

    People that stir the shit with the ATF are not a friend to our gun rights. They are not any different than neo-nazis at a gun show with the news TV station camera on them. They are not helping our cause. They are not any different than some idiot who leaves a gun in his car unattended; then that gun is stolen and used in a murder. Sons of Guns is not on our side. They are the fat of the gun world; and they need to be trimmed.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  4. #24
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    Holy dogshit.

    I agree with Scottryan entirely.

    The world is ending.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  5. #25
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    Welp I hate to tell it to you all the fed doesn't really give dam about what the people own or not they want everything outlawed and us to have nothing... May as well just surrender whatever it is we own/possess now and tattoo stars er I mean bolt faces on our arms.

    Scotty, I'm on board with the points you make but its the principle of the matter thats at issue. If people are going to stand behind principle (stupid or not) than fvxk it, game over.
    “Answer The Bell...” J.W.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    Here is my list:

    Just because something is legal at the time, doesn’t mean it is a smart, moral, ethical, or professional thing to do.

    Examples:

    1. A certain individual was “remaking” transferable MAC-10s into M1919s, M240s, and M60s using the MACs serial number welded to the receiver of the new gun. He was caught. This case is now pending in court.


    The result: NFA forms have to match exactly the configuration of your gun or else the transfer will be rejected with a correction letter. This is to prevent the gun from morphing into something it isn’t. Another result is the belt fed conversion for MACs was also banned. This is also why you can’t use a FNC sear in a SCAR. This also removed a bunch of transferables off the market as they were deemed contraband.

    2. Somebody made a pistol in 7.62x39

    The result: Steel core ammo in this chambering is now banned from import

    3. Some “industry professionals” were remaking each other silencers in a personal feud.

    The result: Silencers can no longer be remanufactured without paying a new transfer tax.

    4. Olympic arms was remaking PAWS converted Olympic M16 lowers. Olympic was not the manufacture of the MG.


    The result: You can no longer have a transferable gun remade, even by the OEM. Those modern Colts floating around on the market with a pre 1986 serial number cannot exist anymore.

    5. Idiots running around with post 2005 imported Benelli and Saiga shotguns that are not compliant with the import ban.


    The result: We now have an ATF 2011 shotgun study that seeks to ban these guns completely. The shotgun study wants to ban weapon lights on imported shotguns.

    6. Idiots made an AK pistol in 5.45.

    The result: 7n6 ammo is banned from import.

    7. NFATCA engages the ATF about CLEO signature.

    The result: Now we are about to have CLEO signature on every NFA transfer type.

    8. Idiot wrote letter in 2004 about greater than 5 round magazines on Benelli shotguns.

    The Result: Benelli shotgun extensions are no longer on the market. Seen a factory 4 round one for sale on gunbroker recently? How much did it sell for?

    In every one of these cases, people stirred the shit pot doing unethical, stupid, or unprofessional activity and gave the ATF an excuse to ban something. I have provided 8 high profile examples of this from the past 20 years.

    We are not on the same level of pedestal as the ATF. They hold all the power. Some of our people think they are engaged in a “gentleman’s discourse” with the ATF. We are not.

    They don’t care. They don’t have to answer to us. It is their job to “find” things or activity to ban. That is how they justify their jobs and authority.

    Some people just cannot grasp this. Some people defend idiot gun owners and manufactures to the death, even if it means putting our rights in jeopardy. Even if it means losing our rights to prove some theoretical political point.

    Some people just don’t have the smarts lay low or not attract unwanted attention.

    People that stir the shit with the ATF are not a friend to our gun rights. They are not any different than neo-nazis at a gun show with the news TV station camera on them. They are not helping our cause. They are not any different than some idiot who leaves a gun in his car unattended; then that gun is stolen and used in a murder. Sons of Guns is not on our side. They are the fat of the gun world; and they need to be trimmed.
    Nice summary of the problem/results. Probably could come up with 50 more given some time to think about it.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpmuscle View Post
    If its to much of a burden upon poor people to make the effort to get free state issued IDs to comply voter ID laws I'd sure as hell love the rationale behind how an opinion letter lacking dissemination to the masses holds any collective legal weight, if any at all to begin with. All hypothetical obviously but just the same..
    A damn good point, but we all know that the current occupants (occupiers, more like) of government office holds peaceful gun owners beneath contempt, while pulling out all the stops to ensure voter fraud keeps them in power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    The BATFE cannot give permission to break the law, and the Constitution does not give them the power to interpret the law. Thus the letters are really useless. It is common Internet folklore they are only binding on the recipient, but that contradicts the Constitution, specifically the 14th amendment. Courts have ruled many times following the illegal advice of a regulatory agency is not a defense to prosecution. The good news is most letters are overly restrictive in nature, not overly permissive.

    About the only use for the letters is to get a clue what BATFE is thinking, or areas to go for further research. I know several BATFE agents as well as a AUSA that have laughed heartily at some of these opinions, knowing they would never arrest or prosecute.



    For me, they are only good for entertainment value. When I need clarification on whether something I want to do is a felony or not, I consult my own expert legal counsel, NOT counsel paid for by the agency that will prosecute me. That is what is called "Conflict Of Interest".
    LOL. Constitution. You think the Constitution is even remotely relevant to those who are going to prosecute some poor Sig Brace-shouldering bastard? ****, you think we're living in America or something?

    OK, sorry. Had to vent a bit.

  8. #28
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    Well, the ATF continues to contradict previous opinions with a new derermination letter (first link below) just released to Alan Thordsen. Not only does it include language about the intent to shoulder, or to actually shoulder, to the Thordsen Buffer Cover/CAA Saddle combination, but it also applies similar intent language to a standard pistol buffer tube without any accessories.

    Why did Thordsen ask for another determination letter? See the FB link below (2nd link). the 3rd link is thordsen's explanation of why they sought a new determination letter.

    In any event, there seems to be a concerted backtrcking effort by the ATF with these letters, and this new Thordsen letter goes further in an opinion on bare buffer tubes. What IMO was fairly simple a few months ago with a couple of determination letters is now a totally convoluted pile of crap. Does the ATF have an endgame with these multiple, contradictory determination letters, like coming out with a "real ruling" that shouldering any pistol, or building a pistol with the intent to shoulder it makes an illegal SBR? I guess we will have to wait and see. Do they finally realize, or admit, that approving the Sig Brace to be installed at all on an AR pistol was a mistake that they want to undo?

    I used to believe that the combo of the Bosco SB-15 determination letter along with the Sgt. Bradley letter were of value to me as an owner of a pistol with a Sig Brace attached. Maybe not law, but at least a written communication from the ATF with which to argue the legality of my accessorized AR pistol. Now, the waters are so muddy and full of letters, who knows?


    http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.c...istol_pack.pdf

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Thord...49024498507032

    http://siterepository.s3.amazonaws.c...ack_rev_03.pdf
    Last edited by DWood; 01-01-15 at 08:47.
    Go in peace, but be prepared for violence.

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