Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department Purchasing A Large Number of Remington 870's

**a308garand** · 07-02-08, 20:59

That picture looks like it was taken from outside the new LAPD range at Granada Hills. Nice facility with the Simunition, live fire and classroom space

**BC520** · 07-02-08, 22:56

Originally Posted by Buck

What disadvantage??? They are both tools, and they both have their place... Several of our patrol officers have also gone to a 40 hour Urban Police Rifle school and can also deploy either a Colt M-16A1 or LE 6920, but these tools do not replace the patrol shotgun, they are just another option depending on the situation...
B

They are a tool in the tool box, I agree. But in my opinion they do have disadvantages.

-Heavier recoil for female/smaller statured officers make it tougher to shoot. well.
-Less ammunition capacity that makes for very frequent reloads.
-Inability to know how the gun is patterned in pool guns, and thus possible liabilty in the use of buck.
-Limit of 25 yard range with buck.
-Awkward to change ammunition if you need slug vs Buck.
-Increased danger of overpenetration with slugs vs 5.56 bullets.
-Not precise accuracy with numerous barrels only equipped with bead front sights.
Don't get me wrong, I feel the shotgun is a tool that needs to stay in the tool box. Durable. Good to bust locks with if exigent circumstances exist. Slugs are nice for if you know you need penetration or if dealing with big game like bears. The ability to use bean bags, NFDD's, or gas loads are another. The use of buck to skip under a car to get a suspect is another. So it has good things to consider it for. But to me I would think it would be more for a secondary long gun. I never have liked the fact that I am accountable for 9 pellets that are spreading more and more every foot they travel, and I am usually unable to maintain a working knowledge of how that gun patterns since every squad has a different shotgun in it. Plus the issue of the wad flying out and striking innocents (Hostage) bothers me. Now give me a patrol rifle that is zeroed for me that I maintain, I'll compete against a co-worker with a shotgun anyday! I'm more confident I am able to engage quicker and at further distances than th shotgun. I've seen officers shoot better with rifles than with shotguns. I just think that there is a higher probability for success with rifles and less liability these days.

**a308garand** · 07-02-08, 23:32

Here is where my own opinion differs:

-Heavier recoil for female/smaller statured officers make it tougher to shoot well.
Our agency uses a #4 pellet load that generates softer recoil energy and has a benefit of a tighter pattern than the classic #4 shot. The shotgun does dish out a kick, but proper stance and shouldering of the shotgun helps cut down the punishment - making faster follow up shots.

-Less ammunition capacity that makes for very frequent reloads.
Very true, but you are throwing at least 12 pellets on target for every pull of the trigger. Shoot/load/shoot/load as time allows.

-Inability to know how the gun is patterned in pool guns, and thus possible liabilty in the use of buck.
Also true, but the shotgun is not a precision tool. It is a fight stopper that throws a heavy amount of lead into the badguy. Yes the pattern is not exact to each pool gun, but it is close enough for the job.

-Limit of 25 yard range with buck.
If the fight is more than 25 yards, you should be using a rifle or slugs to begin with. I carry extra ammo with my shotgun just for this reason.

-Awkward to change ammunition if you need slug vs Buck.
Can be overcome with training. If you don't get comfortable with the shotgun, you leave it behind in the car and it can't help anyway. Train with the thing to overcome any weakness in operation.

-Increased danger of overpenetration with slugs vs 5.56 bullets.
Slugs do penetrate and that is a plus when your target is behind cover.

-Not precise accuracy with numerous barrels only equipped with bead front sights.
Earlier said, the shotgun is not for headshots on hostage takers, but a blunt force tool for throwing lead to put badguys down quickly. The bead sight gets the shot aimed well enough to take care of business.

I never have liked the fact that I am accountable for 9 pellets that are spreading more and more every foot they travel
Classic though process is the shot spreads one inch for every yard of travel....25 yards=25 inch pattern, however, the newer tactical loads (softer recoil) seem be be much tighter, last I saw was about 15-18 inches at 25 yards.
Yes we are accountable for every type of projectile thrown down range, use of deadly force is never a small matter and people can be killed.

I am not trying to put anyone down, I just strongly believe the shotgun is still a very important part of my available weaponry in the field. The rifle is a good tool in the box of tricks and so is the shotgun.

One thing that was not mentioned was cost. The bean counters always hold sway over how much stuff we can get. With one rifle at $900 and one shotgun at $350, you can see how much "bang" for the dollar gets us. Purchasing over 4000 shotguns is not going to happen all at once, the cost will be spread out over the year if not following years.

Rumor has it that the 870 shotgun will be issued with a Surefire lighted forend, sidesaddle ammo device and sling. All good things.

P.S. - LASD was using the Remington 870 shotgun until phasing it out for the Ithaca 37 in the early 1960's.......So we are just returning to were we were a few years ago

A picture of the Ithaca when it was still new...

**sff70** · 07-03-08, 10:13

I wish them luck.

Shotguns can be very effective in the hands of a skilled user, but IMO rifles are a better all around tool for LE.

Better ergos
Less recoil = easier to shoot
Better sights = easier to achieve good hits
Ease of mounting red dot sights
Accuracy, acccuracy, accuracy
No having to switch ammo in the middle of a fight
No fumbling/dropping rounds when switching from buck to slug, or vice versa
No loading rounds backwards when reloading into the ejection port or into the tube magazine (having had to disassemble and reassemble shotguns due to this in a training environment, with experienced users, I'd hate to see it happen in a fight)
Self loading = fewer user induced stoppages (short stroking), easier 1 hand manipulation (what if Ed Mireles had an M4 instead of an 870?)
Body armor penetration
1 load for all distances = no switching of ammo in mid-fight

When LE with shotguns go up against bad guys with rifles, bad things happen. N. Hollywood and Miami are vivid examples of this.

Food for thought - which long gun do you want the officers responding to the active shooter at your kid's school to use? Shotguns with Buckshot, Shotguns with slug, or rifles?

**BC520** · 07-03-08, 10:38

If it was 1-2 officers responding to an Active Killer at the school, I'd want the 1st couple guys with rifles. Hallways can be long distances and I prefer the precision of the rifle when many innocents may be around. But, I wholly recognize the use of the shotgun as a tool not to be taken from the toolbox, and if I have the luxury of a 3rd or 4th LEO I would love for one of them to bring a shotgun, especially if they happen to have TKP rounds for breaching if needed.

I don't want to give up the shotgun. A previous agency I worked for once took all the shotguns and turned them into Less Lethal ONLY guns. No lethal ammo in the squad. We also had a lot of bear in the area, and sometimes someone would hit one, wounding it. I would prefer 12 gauge slugs to try and put one down than a 55 gr pill. But the shotgun to me will sit in the car unless I need to go back for it or I have information that tells me I should bring it instead of the rifle. Otherwise it will be the rifle every time.

I find it ironic that in the very area that spawned an incident that inspired many agencies nationwide to begin to adopt carbines again instead of shotguns is not following the same logic.

I think we see things fairly similar in terms to the importance of the shotguns, just different opinions as to which is more valuable and when.

**TOrrock** · 07-03-08, 10:59

I'd love to have a nice old Ithaca M37.

**MadcapMagician** · 07-03-08, 12:04

Originally Posted by Templar

I'd love to have a nice old Ithaca M37.

Yeah, where are all of the vintage Ithacas going? Knowing Kalifornia they'll probably be off to the crusher, then the chopper, then melted and dumped in the ocean.

**Buck** · 07-03-08, 12:15

Originally Posted by MadcapMagician

Yeah, where are all of the vintage Ithacas going? Knowing Kalifornia they'll probably be off to the crusher, then the chopper, then melted and dumped in the ocean.

Originally Posted by Templar

I'd love to have a nice old Ithaca M37.

Well I know where one went...