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Thread: I am still a little confused about trusts...

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Ok , so what are the wrong points of a form trust?

    What legal mistakes are you referring to?

    Lots of people say how bad they are, but no one points out the actual problem.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
    I have pointed them out numerous times, in many threads here. At least once a month. see the coyote rifle works giveaway thread for a summary.

    I'm not even a probate attorney and I can see how bad many of them are just by taking a cursory glance.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrvip27 View Post
    So is the conclusion that it depends on the state whether to have a blank or filled Schedule A?
    No. This is why you need an attorney.

  3. #43
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    If you paid for an attorney you wouldn't have to go to the interweb asking complete strangers who are not attorneys for legal advice.

    I put my money where my mouth is and paid a mere $300 for a pro-gun, NFA owning attorney here in TX. He set up the trust based on my individual needs and situation. And when it came time to get into the NFA game he walked me through it all step-by-step. No guessing, no asking the web. I highly recommend the same.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinking Dog View Post
    If you paid for an attorney you wouldn't have to go to the interweb asking complete strangers who are not attorneys for legal advice.

    I put my money where my mouth is and paid a mere $300 for a pro-gun, NFA owning attorney here in TX. He set up the trust based on my individual needs and situation. And when it came time to get into the NFA game he walked me through it all step-by-step. No guessing, no asking the web. I highly recommend the same.
    I did go through an NFA attorney who advised me to complete the Sched A before submitting. Hence the questioning of complete strangers. My NFA attorney prepared Trust also got turned back by the dealer for having minors as Trustees, which my attorney foot stomps is legal and legit. Yet countless other "NFA Attorneys" will tell you 'til they are blue in the face that it's not okay to have minors as Trustees. Other things these attorney "SMEs" disagree on are if each Trustee has to sign the Trust, and if Schedule As are a good or bad thing. My take away from my attorney experience (and research) is that even amongst attorneys there is disagreement and contradictory positions on the "correct" way to set up a Trust and that each attorney markets their Trust as more legally correct than their competitors. It boils down to BS marketing hype. The legal field is the epitome of a self licking ice cream cone...

    I'm glad I used an attorney, but the next attorney in line will look at my Trust and say it's a POS and that I'm assuming risk by using it. I should buy theirs if I really want to be covered.
    Last edited by JPB; 02-04-15 at 22:56.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoney View Post
    Do not use a form trust. Use a NFA attorney, I cannot believe how much bad information gets circulated about this topic. Just because you don't have a problem getting your stamps does not mean you haven't made some serious legal mistakes.

    I have seen so many problems that come up just from using willmaker alone that I am shocked someone would use it to ale a trust that could potentially subject them to federal criminal penalties. Additionally, many of the form trusts I have see. Offered are flat out terrible, some of them I have even reported to the state bar of texas for the unauthorized practice of law.

    Don't be lazy with this stuff.
    I guess I was trying to understand the difference. No one seems to explain the differences. Silencershops says its drafted by an attorney. Its $150. An attorney in Phoenix, AZ wants $600 for their nfa trust. Big difference...

    I want the best trust for my money...aka not wasting money but not being cheap and not legal enough to save my ass.
    Last edited by mrvip27; 02-04-15 at 20:59.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrvip27 View Post
    I guess I was trying to understand the difference. No one seems to explain the differences. Silencershops says its drafted by an attorney. Its $150. An attorney in Phoenix, AZ wants $600 for their nfa trust. Big difference...

    I want the best trust for my money...aka not wasting money but not being cheap and not legal enough to save my ass.

    From another thread, this topic has been beaten to death....

    "I really wish they would make a sticky on this topic. I am going to try and address many of the points I always see in these threads to answer your question.

    First, any gun store that is selling form trusts and advising their customers is committing a crime. It is the unauthorized practice of law in probably every single state.

    Second, there seems to be a lot of stubbornness when it comes to this topic. Yes, using a form trust is pretty easy. In fact most of them are one page. This gives people the false perception that the creation of a proper trust is easy. Creating a trust is easy, creating a proper one is a different story. Additionally, many people think that because the ATF has approved their trust, that they are in the clear. This cannot be further from the truth. When ATF approves your trust, it is because it meets their criteria. Each state has different rules on what is required for the formation of a trust, along many other rules governing the management of property and the identity and capabilities of the parties involved. Furthermore, some states have flat out different rules when it comes to duration, creditors, and transfers of property. Almost NONE of the generic NFA trusts contemplate these things, and depending on your state, some are flat out improper, and therefore you do not have a valid trust in your state.

    Why is this a problem? Well because you may have just set up a beneficiary or co-settlor to be in a position where they have committed a federal offense.

    How come you never hear of these problems? Two reasons. First, almost none of them are discovered until the trust settles up, or the settlor dies. Second, the people dealing with these issues are typically spouses and children.

    For those that are using quicken. That is a program for creating basic, basic trusts and wills. I still would never advise a single person to use it. There are numerous horror stories that have come about in will contests just in the short time that program has been available. In Texas, there have been several incidents were people don't understand the rules regarding witnesses, and as a result created a void will, which results in a decedent becoming intestate.

    $350 is about what a decent trust should cost from an attorney. Don't just go to any attorney, find one that is known for creating gun trusts in addition to their regular practice. In texas there are a couple VERY good ones. I will never understand the mindset of people that feel cheating out on this area when it protects them, their loved ones, their friends, and thousands of dollars in property.


    EDIT: I just reviewed coyotes rifle works page. THIS IS FLAT OUT UNAUTHORIZED PRACTICE OF LAW, and has been forwarded to the Texas Supreme Court UPLC as a result. Additionally, just from the generic questions posed, this is a VERY bad trust."


    and

    "Here is an even better explanation from an attorney's website in TX, this isn't even including his discussion of problems concerning scheduling:

    "The short answer to this question is, “You get what you pay for.” About once a week I get a call from someone who just got a really great deal on a gun trust, but they are feeling a little uncomfortable since they did not get advice from a lawyer before they purchased it. I have reviewed a few of these now, and I have some real concerns about what is being sold out there as “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trusts by some gun shops and other non-lawyer websites.


    As an initial matter, a poorly-written trust includes a “Schedule A” or “Schedule 1” to identify all property, including cash and firearms, assigned to the trust. Since the ATF needs a complete copy of the trust as part of the ATF Form 4 application to transfer, every time a customer purchases an NFA firearm from a gun shop, the customer necessarily provides the ATF and the gun shop’s employees with a detailed inventory of trust property (including firearms) assigned to the trust (as well as the customer’s address where the property is located when the customer is at work). For a more detailed discussion regarding why I believe schedules (i.e., exhibits or appendices) should not be used for NFA gun trusts, please read my prior article entitled “To Schedule A or Not to Schedule A, That is the Question.“

    The “Do-It-Yourself” or “Form” trust, also includes several other provisions that I do not recommend. For example, the trust form makes no provisions whatsoever for more than one settlor, such as a husband and his wife. In Texas, all property acquired during marriage is community property, so the wife’s interest and ownership of the property in the trust is not even recognized. This could be a disaster for the wife upon the husband’s death, and could result in some very expensive litigation between the wife and the beneficiaries after the husband’s death.

    Further, the trustees in the trust form are required to administer the trust for the “benefit and enjoyment” of the beneficiaries, rather than the settlor while he or she is alive. Accordingly, another provision provides that the beneficiaries of the trust (usually the settlor’s children) can unanimously agree to terminate the trust “at any time” and force all of the trust property (usually the husband’s gun collection) to be sold or transferred to the beneficiaries, even while the settlor (usually the husband) is very much alive and well, and regardless of whether the beneficiaries (usually the settlor’s children) are, in either the settlor’s or the trustees’ opinion, mature enough or responsible enough to lawfully use and possess the trust property (usually the parents’ gun collection):

    TERMINATION OF TRUST: In addition to the Grantor’s right to revoke and terminate this Trust, if at any time all beneficiaries so consent in writing, the trust shall be terminated and the corpus of the trust sold or transferred, in accordance with the law, and any and all income and corpus shall be divided and distributed to the beneficiaries.

    The settlor is provided with cold comfort that if he or she assigns the homestead (house) and any other real property (land) to the gun shop gun trust, the settlor gets to keep “rent-free possession and occupancy” of the real property, even though legal title has now passed to the beneficiaries. Of course, since the settlor is not required to pay rent to the beneficiaries, the settlor is still required to pay all property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and utilities:

    Homestead Exemption: If the grantor’s principal residence or other real property is conveyed to this Trust, then the grantor shall have the right to rent-free possession and occupancy for life, although the Grantor will have to pay property taxes, insurance, maintenance and utilities. This is intended provide Grantor with a sufficient beneficial interest to continue any homestead tax exemption.

    In my opinion, it would be foolish to ever consider assigning real property to a gun trust, and any so-called “gun trust’ that includes provisions relating to homesteads and other real property is not a real “gun trust.” In addition, because the wife’s community property interest was not even recognized by the trust, this could also result in some very expensive litigation between the wife and the beneficiaries after the husband’s death. Does that trust form still look inexpensive?

    Another provision requires the trustees (usually includes the husband and wife) to allow the beneficiaries (usually the children) full use of all trust property (usually the gun collection), even while the settlor (usually the husband) is very much alive and well, and regardless of whether the beneficiaries (usually the children) are, in either the settlor’s or the trustees’ opinion, mature enough or responsible enough to lawfully use and possess the trust property (usually the gun collection). While the “Do It Yourself” gun trust may provide that beneficiaries may also use and possess any NFA firearms owned by the trust, it also states in bold letters that this provision “is not necessarily legal.” Can you envision the beneficiaries being arrested for doing what they thought was legal? What part of “quick & easy gun trust” was a good thing for you, your wife, and your beneficiaries?

    The “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust further instructs the settlor how to prepare an amendment to add trustees. Unfortunately, while both the settlor and the new “trustees” may believe that the amendment is valid, I have a real concern about whether the amendment is valid. An invalid amendment means that the new “trustees” are not legally trustees. As a result, when these new “trustees” are in possession of any NFA firearms owned by the trust outside the presence of the initial trustees, they are committing a felony. Does that trust form still sound like a “great example of a do-it-yourself option?”

    There are several other provisions that are poorly written and that are either vague, ambiguous, and/or internally inconsistent with other provisions of the trust form. Also, some of the instructions are just plain wrong. Rather than provide an exhaustive list of the problems that I have observed, I would only recommend that your long-term interests in your property (and possibly, your and others’ liberty) may not be well served by a “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust.

    If you are thinking about buying a “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust that does not include the advice of a real Texas lawyer, please reconsider. If you have already, purchased the trust form, request a refund. If you have already submitted an ATF application, you may want to go ahead and take your lumps and consider an amendment and restatement of the trust form, which will amend, restate, and supersede the trust in its entirety, but maintain the earlier effective date of the trust. This can be a fairly simple process with legal assistance. However, there are a few mistakes that will not be able to be corrected, even with an amendment and restatement. It really just depends on what you signed, as opposed to what you think you signed. Ask yourself how many trusts you have drafted or evaluated in the last couple of years. Would you hire yourself to be your own legal counsel on an issue this important? Or would you hire a legal professional who is familiar with this area of the law?

    A properly prepared NFA gun trust is meant to outlast the settlors and, in many cases, the beneficiaries. When buyers of a “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust finally get around to reading and understanding the ramifications of their trust form, they frequently comment that they only wish they had done it right the first time. Why not do it right the first time?

    The typical situation is this. A “Do It Yourself” gun trust is advertised for a cut-rate price ranging from $99.00 to perhaps $150.00. After the customer pays, then the customer receives a “short & simple questionnaire” that takes “about 5 minutes to answer.” The website also advertises that the trust form was designed by an undisclosed “gun trust lawyer,” and that you can even speak directly to the lawyer. Unfortunately, the customer is warned, this lawyer can only “provide technical support for this trust” (whatever that means), and this lawyer cannot and will not do what lawyers are trained and regularly paid to do—provide professional legal advice to their clients. In fact, the lawyer wants the customer to make sure it is understood that the customer is not the lawyer’s client, so the lawyer cannot be held responsible for anything that he actually wrote in the trust form.

    As best I can tell, the source of some of these “Do It Yourself” gun trust forms is www.nfafirearmstrust.com and that form or some variation of it shows up on other websites. Here again, this website advertises that the trust form was prepared by a “group of lawyers,” but the website does not provide any information whatsoever regarding the identity, location, or telephone number of anyone, especially a lawyer. The site also specifically states, “We cannot give you legal advice” and recommends that you consult with an attorney in your own state and “it is up to you to determine how to comply with your state’s laws and your situation.” The only information provided is the identity a limited liability company formed somewhere (try to find us if something goes wrong) and an email address where a customer can request a refund within 30 days of purchase. I suspect that they are located somewhere in the Eastern United States, but I have not been able to confirm this."

  7. #47
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    Every attorney is going to say their paper pushing skills are better and worth more of your money than the other guy. If they didn't, how would they get any business? They're all in it for the money, and have found a certain niche to exploit.

    It's sad really. I know more about NFA items and the laws related to them than some of these local advertised "gun trust" lawyers do.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoney View Post

    "Here is an even better explanation from an attorney's website in TX, this isn't even including his discussion of problems concerning scheduling:

    "The short answer to this question is, “You get what you pay for.” About once a week I get a call from someone who just got a really great deal on a gun trust, but they are feeling a little uncomfortable since they did not get advice from a lawyer before they purchased it. I have reviewed a few of these now, and I have some real concerns about what is being sold out there as “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trusts by some gun shops and other non-lawyer websites.


    As an initial matter, a poorly-written trust includes a “Schedule A” or “Schedule 1” to identify all property, including cash and firearms, assigned to the trust. Since the ATF needs a complete copy of the trust as part of the ATF Form 4 application to transfer, every time a customer purchases an NFA firearm from a gun shop, the customer necessarily provides the ATF and the gun shop’s employees with a detailed inventory of trust property (including firearms) assigned to the trust (as well as the customer’s address where the property is located when the customer is at work). For a more detailed discussion regarding why I believe schedules (i.e., exhibits or appendices) should not be used for NFA gun trusts, please read my prior article entitled “To Schedule A or Not to Schedule A, That is the Question.“

    The “Do-It-Yourself” or “Form” trust, also includes several other provisions that I do not recommend. For example, the trust form makes no provisions whatsoever for more than one settlor, such as a husband and his wife. In Texas, all property acquired during marriage is community property, so the wife’s interest and ownership of the property in the trust is not even recognized. This could be a disaster for the wife upon the husband’s death, and could result in some very expensive litigation between the wife and the beneficiaries after the husband’s death.

    Further, the trustees in the trust form are required to administer the trust for the “benefit and enjoyment” of the beneficiaries, rather than the settlor while he or she is alive. Accordingly, another provision provides that the beneficiaries of the trust (usually the settlor’s children) can unanimously agree to terminate the trust “at any time” and force all of the trust property (usually the husband’s gun collection) to be sold or transferred to the beneficiaries, even while the settlor (usually the husband) is very much alive and well, and regardless of whether the beneficiaries (usually the settlor’s children) are, in either the settlor’s or the trustees’ opinion, mature enough or responsible enough to lawfully use and possess the trust property (usually the parents’ gun collection):

    TERMINATION OF TRUST: In addition to the Grantor’s right to revoke and terminate this Trust, if at any time all beneficiaries so consent in writing, the trust shall be terminated and the corpus of the trust sold or transferred, in accordance with the law, and any and all income and corpus shall be divided and distributed to the beneficiaries.

    The settlor is provided with cold comfort that if he or she assigns the homestead (house) and any other real property (land) to the gun shop gun trust, the settlor gets to keep “rent-free possession and occupancy” of the real property, even though legal title has now passed to the beneficiaries. Of course, since the settlor is not required to pay rent to the beneficiaries, the settlor is still required to pay all property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and utilities:

    Homestead Exemption: If the grantor’s principal residence or other real property is conveyed to this Trust, then the grantor shall have the right to rent-free possession and occupancy for life, although the Grantor will have to pay property taxes, insurance, maintenance and utilities. This is intended provide Grantor with a sufficient beneficial interest to continue any homestead tax exemption.

    In my opinion, it would be foolish to ever consider assigning real property to a gun trust, and any so-called “gun trust’ that includes provisions relating to homesteads and other real property is not a real “gun trust.” In addition, because the wife’s community property interest was not even recognized by the trust, this could also result in some very expensive litigation between the wife and the beneficiaries after the husband’s death. Does that trust form still look inexpensive?

    Another provision requires the trustees (usually includes the husband and wife) to allow the beneficiaries (usually the children) full use of all trust property (usually the gun collection), even while the settlor (usually the husband) is very much alive and well, and regardless of whether the beneficiaries (usually the children) are, in either the settlor’s or the trustees’ opinion, mature enough or responsible enough to lawfully use and possess the trust property (usually the gun collection). While the “Do It Yourself” gun trust may provide that beneficiaries may also use and possess any NFA firearms owned by the trust, it also states in bold letters that this provision “is not necessarily legal.” Can you envision the beneficiaries being arrested for doing what they thought was legal? What part of “quick & easy gun trust” was a good thing for you, your wife, and your beneficiaries?

    The “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust further instructs the settlor how to prepare an amendment to add trustees. Unfortunately, while both the settlor and the new “trustees” may believe that the amendment is valid, I have a real concern about whether the amendment is valid. An invalid amendment means that the new “trustees” are not legally trustees. As a result, when these new “trustees” are in possession of any NFA firearms owned by the trust outside the presence of the initial trustees, they are committing a felony. Does that trust form still sound like a “great example of a do-it-yourself option?”

    There are several other provisions that are poorly written and that are either vague, ambiguous, and/or internally inconsistent with other provisions of the trust form. Also, some of the instructions are just plain wrong. Rather than provide an exhaustive list of the problems that I have observed, I would only recommend that your long-term interests in your property (and possibly, your and others’ liberty) may not be well served by a “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust.

    If you are thinking about buying a “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust that does not include the advice of a real Texas lawyer, please reconsider. If you have already, purchased the trust form, request a refund. If you have already submitted an ATF application, you may want to go ahead and take your lumps and consider an amendment and restatement of the trust form, which will amend, restate, and supersede the trust in its entirety, but maintain the earlier effective date of the trust. This can be a fairly simple process with legal assistance. However, there are a few mistakes that will not be able to be corrected, even with an amendment and restatement. It really just depends on what you signed, as opposed to what you think you signed. Ask yourself how many trusts you have drafted or evaluated in the last couple of years. Would you hire yourself to be your own legal counsel on an issue this important? Or would you hire a legal professional who is familiar with this area of the law?

    A properly prepared NFA gun trust is meant to outlast the settlors and, in many cases, the beneficiaries. When buyers of a “Do It Yourself” or “Form” gun trust finally get around to reading and understanding the ramifications of their trust form, they frequently comment that they only wish they had done it right the first time. Why not do it right the first time?

    The typical situation is this. A “Do It Yourself” gun trust is advertised for a cut-rate price ranging from $99.00 to perhaps $150.00. After the customer pays, then the customer receives a “short & simple questionnaire” that takes “about 5 minutes to answer.” The website also advertises that the trust form was designed by an undisclosed “gun trust lawyer,” and that you can even speak directly to the lawyer. Unfortunately, the customer is warned, this lawyer can only “provide technical support for this trust” (whatever that means), and this lawyer cannot and will not do what lawyers are trained and regularly paid to do—provide professional legal advice to their clients. In fact, the lawyer wants the customer to make sure it is understood that the customer is not the lawyer’s client, so the lawyer cannot be held responsible for anything that he actually wrote in the trust form.

    As best I can tell, the source of some of these “Do It Yourself” gun trust forms is www.nfafirearmstrust.com and that form or some variation of it shows up on other websites. Here again, this website advertises that the trust form was prepared by a “group of lawyers,” but the website does not provide any information whatsoever regarding the identity, location, or telephone number of anyone, especially a lawyer. The site also specifically states, “We cannot give you legal advice” and recommends that you consult with an attorney in your own state and “it is up to you to determine how to comply with your state’s laws and your situation.” The only information provided is the identity a limited liability company formed somewhere (try to find us if something goes wrong) and an email address where a customer can request a refund within 30 days of purchase. I suspect that they are located somewhere in the Eastern United States, but I have not been able to confirm this."

    Exhibit A. An attorney stating that he does it better than the other guy. I've read this guy's whole page and he indeed points too examples where other attorneys "are doing it wrong." That's what tells me that there's no ground truth here, just marketing. If there was one solid legal position that these salesmen agreed on, then I'd be inclined to give them more credibility. I'm sure I could go buy me a legal expert that could provide a counter point to every one of his positions. It's in their best interest to undermine their competition.

    Laughing all the way to the bank...
    Last edited by JPB; 02-04-15 at 22:57.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPB View Post
    Exhibit A. An attorney stating that he does it better than the other guy. I've read this guy's whole page and he indeed points too examples where other attorneys "are doing it wrong." That's what tells me that there's no ground truth here, just marketing. If there was one solid legal position that these salesmen agreed on, then I'd be inclined to give them more credibility. I'm sure I could go buy me a legal expert that could provide a counter point to every one of his positions. It's in their best interest to undermine their competition.

    Laughing all the way to the bank...
    Wow you are dense. The first part of that is from me, and I don't even practice probate law. Second, the guy that comes from is one of the most respected minds on the matter in the southern US. Last, he is right, they are doing it wrong.

    I guess its really not worth the effort, some people just won't get it until they are $10k down in attorney's fees and their stuff is gone because they were too damn stubborn to get over their pride.

    And FYI, if you think he is making a killing off $300 trust consultations, you are retarded. That is probably the cheapest legal service you will ever see. Just for reference, a basic Class B misdemeanor in texas is typically over $3000 in legal fees, and takes about the same amount of work (excluding complex theft or DWI)
    Last edited by jmoney; 02-04-15 at 23:03.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoney View Post
    Wow you are dense. The first part of that is from me, and I don't even practice probate law. And FYI, if you think he is making a killing off $300 trust consultations, you are retarded. That is probably the cheapest legal service you will ever see. Just for reference, a basic Class B misdemeanor in texas is typically over $3000 in legal fees, and takes about the same amount of work (excluding complex theft or DWI)
    Dense, retarded? I only quoted the legal expert, not you. Learn how to read before calling people names.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmoney View Post
    I guess its really not worth the effort, some people just won't get it until they are $10k down in attorney's fees and their stuff is gone because they were too damn stubborn to get over their pride.
    Like I posted earlier, I used an Attorney. Take a breath and read before posting....
    Last edited by JPB; 02-04-15 at 23:21.

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