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Thread: Dealer involvement when transferring items from one trust to another....

  1. #11
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    from what I was told they are a "compliance officer" not sure who or what that is but since they are the only class 3 in my area, I'm SOL if they wont accept it... They didn't try to bait and switch me into purchasing a trust through them or any scam like that, they just simply said my VA trust wont be able to be used here in MS.
    When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.. - Ronald Reagan

    smoke and drink and screw..that's what I was born to do.. - Steel Panther

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reagans Rascals View Post
    Excuse me?

    I just stated I had an NFA attorney complete my trust. If my so called "junk trust" wasn't legal the NFA would have simply denied my forms, plain and simple.

    Read more, talk less and maybe you wont come off as abrasive next time.
    Simply getting a tax stamp does not mean that the BATFE has made a legal review of your trust to establish its validity. They use a check list based on each state's trust laws. For example, if the examiner finds a creator/grantor, a trustee, and a beneficiary, and they are not all the same person, and the document has been executed, then BATFE will proceed. There may still be legal deficiencies within the trust that BATFE does not look for.

    I attended a legal continuing education presentation where BATFE counsel gave an example of a bunch of trusts that came through from the same area. The grantor, trustee, and primary beneficiary were different, but the alternate beneficiary was the same person on all these trusts. It appeared to him that someone passed their trust to others to revise. No subsequent person changed the alt. bene. Some guy's wife or girlfriend is due to inherit a bunch of NFA items some day. A valid trust designation but probably not what anyone but the first grantor intended.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack crab View Post
    Simply getting a tax stamp does not mean that the BATFE has made a legal review of your trust to establish its validity. They use a check list based on each state's trust laws. For example, if the examiner finds a creator/grantor, a trustee, and a beneficiary, and they are not all the same person, and the document has been executed, then BATFE will proceed. There may still be legal deficiencies within the trust that BATFE does not look for.

    I attended a legal continuing education presentation where BATFE counsel gave an example of a bunch of trusts that came through from the same area. The grantor, trustee, and primary beneficiary were different, but the alternate beneficiary was the same person on all these trusts. It appeared to him that someone passed their trust to others to revise. No subsequent person changed the alt. bene. Some guy's wife or girlfriend is due to inherit a bunch of NFA items some day. A valid trust designation but probably not what anyone but the first grantor intended.
    Simply because the same person is listed as the alternate beneficiary on multiple trusts does not itself present cause for concern to its validity. That's simply multiple people using the same blanket trust to avoid creating their own. While not advisable and ideal, that doesn't mean the trust itself is illegal, unless beneficiaries of the trust or the grantor of the trust had no knowledge and no willful intent to be present on such a document and their notarized signature was fraudulently copied, that in itself is forgery and that act itself is illegal.

    However; this is all digressing from my original question. I had a licensed NFA attorney from the State of Virginia draw up my trust, with the individuals I chose myself to be listed as benefactors. I then, in my presence had the documents notarized by all applicable parties. My trust is legal and sound. But that does not mean my trust is legal and sound in multiple jurisdictions/states. Hence the reason I asked for specific advice from individuals who have experienced moving with a trust and then attempting to purchase items in their new state with their old trust. What they were required to do, if anything, and what specific verbiage was required for that trust to be considered legal.

    And your point has just further reinstated my viewpoint that my trust is actually valid in this state as well and will satisfy any ATF requirements, as they only look to see if it meets specific minimum level requirements, and that the trust has been executed.
    When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.. - Ronald Reagan

    smoke and drink and screw..that's what I was born to do.. - Steel Panther

  4. #14
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    Anyone can call themselves a "compliance officer." Ask the compliance officer if corporations incorporated in Delaware are valid in MS.

    The compliance officer's first duty is to preserve his FFL and avoid legal problems for his business. The missed profit on your transaction is not worth it. It is easier to create some BS excuse about VA trusts not being in valid in MS, etc. Rather than beat around with some suspect opinion on trust validity, he should just say he is not comfortable with the deal and decline the transaction.

  5. #15
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    My advice to call the attorney who made your trust and speak with her directly. As you can see there are already conflicting and confusing statements being made here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reagans Rascals View Post
    Simply because the same person is listed as the alternate beneficiary on multiple trusts does not itself present cause for concern to its validity. That's simply multiple people using the same blanket trust to avoid creating their own. While not advisable and ideal, that doesn't mean the trust itself is illegal, unless beneficiaries of the trust or the grantor of the trust had no knowledge and no willful intent to be present on such a document and their notarized signature was fraudulently copied, that in itself is forgery and that act itself is illegal.

    However; this is all digressing from my original question. I had a licensed NFA attorney from the State of Virginia draw up my trust, with the individuals I chose myself to be listed as benefactors. I then, in my presence had the documents notarized by all applicable parties. My trust is legal and sound. But that does not mean my trust is legal and sound in multiple jurisdictions/states. Hence the reason I asked for specific advice from individuals who have experienced moving with a trust and then attempting to purchase items in their new state with their old trust. What they were required to do, if anything, and what specific verbiage was required for that trust to be considered legal.

    And your point has just further reinstated my viewpoint that my trust is actually valid in this state as well and will satisfy any ATF requirements, as they only look to see if it meets specific minimum level requirements, and that the trust has been executed.



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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    My advice to call the attorney who made your trust and speak with her directly. As you can see there are already conflicting and confusing statements being made here.
    This, in my opinion is the best reason to use an attorney who knows NFA trusts. As their client, they are a resource to give you legal advice when situations like this arise. OP, please let us know your attorney's reply.

    I did my original trust on Willmaker Pro. I used it successfully to buy several NFA items, but as someone stated, it didn't mean the trust was completely in order. I believe it was, but last year I decided to ammend it and had a lawyer handle the revisions. It was worth the peace of mind for $225 knowing I can call the attorney now instead of asking the internet.
    Last edited by DWood; 02-05-15 at 11:00.
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  7. #17
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    Laurel should take care of it. She did the same for my dad when he moved from VA to NC.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by thabends View Post
    Laurel should take care of it. She did the same for my dad when he moved from VA to NC.
    Roger that
    When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.. - Ronald Reagan

    smoke and drink and screw..that's what I was born to do.. - Steel Panther

  9. #19
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    Just spoke to the lawyer who drew up my trust. She stated my trust is valid in most states, as all but a few have adopted the Universal Trust Code (including MS), and my trust was drafted in accordance with the UTC. She stated it is the NFA examiners job to judge the validity of a trust, not the dealer. Therefore I am more than able to use my current trust for future purchases. She is currently drafting an amendment letter for me to attach to the trust, reflecting my change of address, which will hopefully appease my local dealer as well.

    So in the end, the moral of the story is. If your trust is completed and executed by an experienced NFA attorney in accordance with the UTC, you should be fine when making purchases in another state if you move... barring any unforeseen circumstances... this is not legal advice and ymmv...
    When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat.. - Ronald Reagan

    smoke and drink and screw..that's what I was born to do.. - Steel Panther

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