Overt vs Covert Gear in a SHTF Situation

[docsherm]

There are many different ideas about weather o person should use Overt or Covert gear in a SHTF situation. I figure that I would get a discussion started on it.

Here are the guidelines:

- Describe your situation (real or hypothetical)

- Group or individual

- General use or bug out/ traveling

- Weapon systems carried and why?

- Amount of Ammo carried on you and why?

- If you plan to use both Overt and Covert then when and why for each?


I hope that everyone can share info and some rational as why you go whit that. I will be post my response later.

[soulezoo]

See my responses in the quote below

There are many different ideas about weather o person should use Overt or Covert gear in a SHTF situation. I figure that I would get a discussion started on it.

Here are the guidelines:

- Describe your situation (real or hypothetical) Hypothetical Of course, SHTF when one is least prepared or in the worst possible place. I work in a heavily populated downtown environment. For whatever reason SHTF the first task is to get home. For this I do have an EDC get home bag. I can get out of my dress clothes and be into more covert and functional clothes and footware. Be inconspicuous. E&E... get home. For weapon I have a Sig p226 (1985 West German model!) for CC. It is possible for me to walk home if required (although a long one of a few hours) Once home, it all depends on just what the SHTF is. I am more likely to "bug in". I am out in the rural, farmland and a very nearby river. If it is really needed (situation calls for it) then I'll kit up. As overt as possible. Sure, I am familiar with both theories... I will lean more toward being thought a "hard target" for urchins to pass by for easier prey than simply a soft target that could invite trespass. If it is really necessary to bug out... I can do that too. I am prepared down to bug out bags and a vehicle all the way to a loaded RV if that is possible. If vehicle travel is not possible, then unless extreme environmental situation mandates it, I am staying put. I'm too old to hoof it very far with much kit. The below describes once home. Bottom line for me is to avoid contact or confrontation but be prepared to deal with it if/when it occurs.

It's difficult to really "be prepared" for all when one cannot rightfully predict "what, when and where". So with that in mind, the above is just a general philosophy with the greatest amount of flexibiliy and adaptability in mind. Tempered with reality of course.

- Group or individual ; largely individual

- General use or bug out/ traveling; can be bug in/out dependent on circumstances

- Weapon systems carried and why? Noveske Reece with Bushnell Tactical Elite 1-6.5x. Combination of portability, weight, commonality of platform, ease of use and etc. Sidearm: Glock 20; I prefer the ballistics.

- Amount of Ammo carried on you and why? 3 mags on person, 2 on rifle. 3 mags for pistol. That's still a lot of ammo... If I can't get out of trouble with that much ammo, I'm in real trouble. I don't want to be too weighed down though.

- If you plan to use both Overt and Covert then when and why for each?


I hope that everyone can share info and some rational as why you go whit that. I will be post my response later.

[68W]

This should be an interesting conversation. I look forward to it.

I have the belief that as situationally aware as I try to be about current political and socioeconomic circumstances I still won't see the S coming that will HTF enough to stay home, open the safe, and start piling up sandbags. I believe that it will happen inconveniently when I'm at the hospital doing my everyday thing, separating me from my wife and 3 young children; not to mention that one of them is now in public school. My place of work is only 5-6 miles from home but there is a decent amount of humanity packed in between A and B.

My hypothetical scenario #1 is an earthquake. "They" say we are long overdue and that given the known fault lines and the manner of structural construction of a large portion of the metro area it will be devastating on a grand, isolating scale. In this situation my professional role will make leaving work hard to do as casualties start showing up. I have a real gut check decision point coming if this plays out. Hopefully, I can have immediate contact and situation report from my wife on the safety of the home structurally, the retrieval of our kindergartner, and the behavior of the neighborhood. Depending on the answers to all of these things I can decide if I'm headed home or staying and helping with the impending chaos.

If I decide I have to go home: I'll drive as far as I can since I'm safer in my truck than on the sidewalk. If I get to a point where I need to walk I'll ditch the truck and do so, its just a vehicle. I always have a weapon on me, unfortunately I call it my toy gun, my LCP .380. I hate it but I can conceal it while doing what I do and I must conceal it deep in the professional environment I'm in. I've considered the single stack 9's out there and haven't felt like they are a feasible option even. It sucks but that's what I can do. Going covert is my only option given my lack of real firepower. I should get another mag at least to stash in the truck or bag but I haven't. So, I'll be stuck walking home with just that--a Ruger LCP with 7 rounds in it. Some days I have taken my real EDC pistol (XD .40 subcompact) and left it in the truck with a spare mag just for this reason but practice on this is inconsistent at best. Covert is my best hope to avoid contact.

Once home I believe I'll be more covert than overt in the day to day work of keeping things going at home. Casual clothes with EDC pistol OWB, instead of my daily IWB, plus 2 mags concealed under shirt/jacket. Work will have to be done most likely. This is of course on the assumption that the neighborhood will remain mostly calm and safe while they just try to gather their senses and dig out a bit. I suspect a few days into things is when the air might start to feel a little more tense. I do believe that I will have a sense for this inevitable graduated ratcheting up of threat levels. I expect I will transition from covert to overt in a like mannered way. Start by having the rifle (BCM 16.1" M4 carbine with low power variable currently--I hope to switch it out for an Aimpoint micro this spring) near me, to having on the war belt with extra mags, to putting on the full kit/armor with a drop leg (Beretta 96 with D spring and trijicon nightsights). If I am hearing of trouble and looting or whatever jack assery I do think I'd rather be a hard target, but I want to avoid it as long as possible because being a hard target still marks you as a target. Avoiding "contact" is by far my preference.

I'm mostly planning on bugging in. My city is geographically isolated with only really 2 freeways in/out. I don't believe I could drive out in this situation as the freeways/bridges might be structurally impassable or definitely traffic jammed beyond belief for 50 miles in all 3 viable directions. The 4th direction is really worthless given what's out there geographically speaking. Plus, I'm in the dead center of the main city with sprawling suburbia up and down these arteries. In normal times my hometown where my parents are is only a 3 hour drive but I think until the whole scenario really settles in is all but unreachable. That would be a better destination but not safe to try and do. Our home is supplied for getting through this scenario from a food, water, heat standpoint so I would have to do my best to stick it out in the Alamo. Again, avoiding the conflict/confrontations/fights will be paramount to getting through a 30-60 day earthquake clean up and infrastructure rebuild.

I hope that things stay safe around the house so that I can work, helping the system handle the overload that these sorts of situations cause and relieve some of the suffering that will be inevitable in the populace.

If the hypothetical scenario is of race riot/socioeconomic/terrorist nature then I'm more likely to become overt immediately with the whole kit and kaboodle. Looters and rioters are mostly cowards without skills only hitting targets of opportunity. I want to discourage them from operating in my neighborhood. If my appearance doesn't then I want 30 round mags to deal with a large crowd...God help us all in that case, it makes me shudder to consider it--I'm willing and able but not excited. Getting home from work in this scenario is a much more treacherous movement and with only my LCP will suck at best. I guess I should make stashing a real pistol in the vehicle a regular practice for this reason but that has its own debatable merits and risks.

[Ironman8]

Interesting topic and one that I've been thinking about alot lately and have been working on my kit to cover my "threat matrix". I'll be brief, but basically the situation will dictate how I am kitted out.

Two situations come to mind:
A "SHTF" situation that happens with no warning, where all I have is what I carry for EDC (handgun and a few mags) VS. a situation that I can prepare for and kit up accordingly. If it's the former, then it's likely that it happened while I was out and about and all I would have is the above along with a pack containing med kit and extra stuff. If I can't drive home, I would stock up on as much water and food as I could carry and get moving.

If it's the latter, where I can assess the situation, then I would kit up in a few different ways. I'll call these EDC+, Covert, and Overt.

EDC+ would look like:
Soft body armor
Handgun in OWB pancake style holster
1-2 handgun mags
Fixed blade knife
Handheld flashlight
Med kit in pockets
(all under cover garment such as pearl snap / button down shirt)

Covert would look like:
Soft body armor with thin steel plate up front
Handgun in OWB WML holster (pancake concealment type)
2 handgun mags
1 rifle mag
Fixed blade knife
Handheld flashlight (maybe)
Med kit in pockets
(all under cover garment such as pearl snap / button down shirt)
+ Rifle and PC ready to go in trunk of car if things got nasty

Overt would look like:
Plate carrier with plates and backers w/ 3 rifle mags
Rifle slung
Battle belt with 1 AR mag, 2 handgun mags, med kit, handheld flashlight (in pouch), and OWB WML Holster w/ Handgun (Safariland duty type)
And don't forget the tactical sunglasses, beard, and mean muggin hardass look

Like I said above, the threat level will dictate which kit I choose. In my matrix, things would have to be pretty bad to get to overt. Most of my kit will revolve around concealment which means an AR is out...ARs and concealment just don't mix. I suppose I could add another loadout and call it something like Semi-Overt. This would be all the Covert gear with an AR slung. Think PSD vs Mil. In either of these cases, avoiding a fight is probably the best practice.

I'll most likely be solo, and bugging out is pretty much last resort...and honestly it's something square in fantasyland unless you have an actual place to go that is a reasonable distance away. Sorry, just my opinion.

[Javadrinker]

Good topic Doc.
I normally carry and have 2 mags on me as well as a light, a "polite" knife, my normal folding knife, a boo boo kit, and my phone. I also carry a Maxpedition Fatboy with another pistol, extra mags, extra ammo, fixed blade knife, more first aide and TQ, zip ties, Velcro straps, few tools, gloves, buff, aluminum foil, zip lock bags, a few hard candies, energy bars, coffee, and kool aid, a water bottle, and a charger for my phone(wall and vehicle). That will get me home if I am out.
It is just the HH6 and I, so we are more prepared to bug in than bug out, but I am prepared to leave as well with bags packed, important papers scanned to thumb drives as well as on CD, and prepared for the pets as well. I also have the Ar, shotty, and bolt action ready to go. HH6 is also carrying and proficient with her pistol as well as the rifles and shotty.
We are getting much better prepared medically speaking, but are adequate. Each bag has enough for 3 days of food, IF we have to bug out.

Remember, be the gray man.

[Wake27]

Good topic Doc.
I normally carry and have 2 mags on me as well as a light, a "polite" knife, my normal folding knife, a boo boo kit, and my phone. I also carry a Maxpedition Fatboy with another pistol, extra mags, extra ammo, fixed blade knife, more first aide and TQ, zip ties, Velcro straps, few tools, gloves, buff, aluminum foil, zip lock bags, a few hard candies, energy bars, coffee, and kool aid, a water bottle, and a charger for my phone(wall and vehicle). That will get me home if I am out.
It is just the HH6 and I, so we are more prepared to bug in than bug out, but I am prepared to leave as well with bags packed, important papers scanned to thumb drives as well as on CD, and prepared for the pets as well. I also have the Ar, shotty, and bolt action ready to go. HH6 is also carrying and proficient with her pistol as well as the rifles and shotty.
We are getting much better prepared medically speaking, but are adequate. Each bag has enough for 3 days of food, IF we have to bug out.

Remember, be the gray man.

What's buff? And what's the kool aid, candies, aluminum foil, and coffee for?


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[Koshinn]

Overt is only detrimental when there is functioning law enforcement.

Looking like you're "looking for a fight" is good. You're a hardened target. You're prepared. You have fangs and claws and know how to use them.

Criminals and predators share many things in common, but the biggest is that they're opportunists. They always go for the easy prey, the young or old or sick. Don't be a soft target.



Yes, blanket statements always have exceptions. If I were travelling in a large defenseless group for which I could not care less about, I would try not to stick out as one competent individual won't factor heavily into a huge target like that, because I'd value my own survival over theirs. But if it was a large group of friends and family, I would be as combat effective as possible. I might be the first target, but with armor I might survive. It'd be worth it. I'm not a hero sheepdog, I'm not about to take care of every group of people who's only virtue is that they're not criminals.

[sevenhelmet]

Generally, I agree with not being a soft target. But overt weapons and gear makes it harder to de-escalate or minimize exposure to a threat since you stand out. And there is always the chance that a threat is bigger or has better numbers than you do. It's definitely situation dependent, which makes discussions like this important. The line will be different for everyone based on situation and their level of training. Being covert doesn't necessarily mean being a soft target. There is a lot to be said for concealed defenses and maintaining SA.

[Koshinn]

Generally, I agree with not being a soft target. But overt weapons and gear makes it harder to de-escalate or minimize exposure to a threat since you stand out. And there is always the chance that a threat is bigger or has better numbers than you do. It's definitely situation dependent, which makes discussions like this important. The line will be different for everyone based on situation and their level of training. Being covert doesn't necessarily mean being a soft target. There is a lot to be said for concealed defenses and maintaining SA.

De-scalate? Why is it ever an advantage, when the rule of law is gone, to have less influence over others?

There's also a difference between actually being a soft target, which no one here is advocating, and appearing to be a soft target.

Bad guys choose targets based on probability of success with minimal losses. Seeing someone with armor and a rifle is a HUGE deterrent.

It's better to avoid a fight than to get in one and being overt does that.

[TacticalSledgehammer]

I think it all depends on how bad you want a guy's gear. I could see someone you deem as a soft target ambushing an overt guy to score his gear and eliminate a threat. On the other hand I see an overt guy holding a big advantage if he was in a group of other overt guys.