Overt vs Covert Gear in a SHTF Situation

[docsherm]

Double post.......

[readyme]

Great thoughts Doc.
Since we obviously have different experiences, I am grateful you are willing to share and expand our knowledge.

[docsherm]

Great thoughts Doc.
Since we obviously have different experiences, I am grateful you are willing to share and expand our knowledge.

Anytime. I am just trying to facilitate a good discussion on the topic.

[68W]

There have been some really good post in this thread and I can tell that some thought has been put into it.


Here is the reason that I started the thread, to try and get an understanding on the mind set that people are thinking about. Most think that Covert is the way to go and I can completely understand that way of thinking. That is want I was trying to get down to. As someone that has been in some very bad places, sometimes with as few people as one other person, I can tell you that that is going to be the biggest handicap during the situation. A person can't think like a normal American because we are not wired like that.

In a real SHTF situation the thought process MUST change with the environment.

I have appreciated this thread a great deal. This post by Doc is very very good. I especially like the phrase that I added emphasis to. Our ability to change our way of thinking and approaching the problems of our world once things change is what will make the difference between those that survive/thrive and those that become victims.

To the point Doc made about a person not being able to think like a normal American because it's not how we are wired is very true. When you get right down to it we are wired for very basic instincts and only society and civilized/luxurious lifestyles allow us to cultivate higher thoughts and behaviors. This means many people will not be able to think or act as mildly when hungry, cold, or scared and can become dangerous; very unlike what they act like on a normal basis commuting to and from their office job. Now, conversely, I'm also reminded of a tenet of the great work of LTC Dave Grossman in "On Killing". In that he said that all species, including us, have an innate resistance to killing our own kind, we aren't naturally hard-wired for it. I've recently read this book and it was fantastic, I highly recommend it to all if you haven't already read it. I bring this up to reinforce Doc's statement on how quickly our way of thinking must change in a dynamic and dangerous environment. We have to be able and willing to switch and get over our instinctive aversion to harming others when the situation becomes as threatening as he has described. I think this discussion of overt vs covert parallels this psychology. Can we recognize the need to change our thoughts and approach?

Probably does not need to be said, but I am obviously only advocating defending self and loved ones, judicious use of force is always required and I don't relish the idea of killing. All statements on such a topic are seated firmly in the concept of our right to defend ourselves and loved ones when life and property are lethally threatened.

I don't believe I've brought up a novel concept here, I just thought it was pertinent to this post by Doc.

[Moose-Knuckle]

There have been some really good post in this thread and I can tell that some thought has been put into it.


Here is the reason that I started the thread, to try and get an understanding on the mind set that people are thinking about. Most think that Covert is the way to go and I can completely understand that way of thinking. That is want I was trying to get down to. As someone that has been in some very bad places, sometimes with as few people as one other person, I can tell you that that is going to be the biggest handicap during the situation. A person can't think like a normal American because we are not wired like that.

In a real SHTF situation the thought process MUST change with the environment. We society breaks down people will get primal real fast, especially here in the US where we have become used to getting everything we want right now. People will go from mild manner banker to Somali Warlord in a few weeks under the right conditions. Everything can deteriorate very fast with this perceptions and actions must change also. People are primal and may not respect but will fear power. Perception is reality. If they think that you are the biggest bad-ass around they are not going to mess with you. If you are guarding your home with you family and some guy rolls up in a tank you are most likely not going to start to flex and have a pissing contest with them. A good way to look at it is prison yard rules; if there is some giant animal in the yard the small and weak are going to gravitate to them for protection and he will soon have the largest group in the prison. He may look like a complete bad ass but is a total dork, but the likelihood of someone testing it is low. In a real SHTF that bad ass looking dork will have gained a large following and by the time that normal people have changed their mindset it is too late.

Can this be done with a few people or does it have to be a large group? A well organised group can be small as long as their SH!# is wired tight and their actions are as consistent as their appearance. A platoon size element of people thrown together is going to think real hard about attacking an ODA rolling down the street as long as they have a reputation (real or perceived). The actions are the hardest part. This is where the mind set must really change. This must be done in order to achieve the full desired effect. Mary Poppins is going to be looked at very different then Attila the Hun not just because of appearance but because of their actions. No am I condoning a Salt the Earth campaign plan to go the the river to get water......absolutely not. Although you must look at things and act different then you look at them now.

Now am I saying that you should flaunt everything that have all of the time, hell no. The situation dictates how you act. Never discount an option. Have it in your bag a tricks. Just because you can't think of a reason you would every roll heavy does not mean that you should not prepare for a time when you may need to.

Again, this is just a mental exercise and no answers are wrong.

Keep up the great conversation.

Excellent post Doc!

Just some random thoughts. The old adage "the best defense is a good offense" bears to mind and is applicable in some circumstances. However one does not want to be a paper tiger. Be sure your mouth isn't writing checks your ass cannot cash. I always keep this in the back of my mind; "Kill one, terrify a thousand." - Sun Tzu.

Being a fan of Westerns, this scene from Open Range drives this point home. When facing superior numbers in a fight for their lives Charley Waite goes straight for the cattle barons' most fearsome hired gun . . .






If you are going to be a bear, be a mother ****ing GRIZZLY!

[docsherm]

Both of you have very good points. That is exactly what I was talking about.


By the way Moose, that is one of my favorite movies.

[mjp]

There are many different ideas about weather o person should use Overt or Covert gear in a SHTF situation. I figure that I would get a discussion started on it.

Here are the guidelines:

- Describe your situation (real or hypothetical)- govt failure, power grid down, not relying on the gov for anything

- Group or individual- small group, wife and I, family if they can get close, a few neighbors

- General use or bug out/ traveling- bugging in hopefully, bug out if someone in the group has a good location to head to

- Weapon systems carried and why?- M4 in the vehicle, glock 17/19 on person. For this situation I would rather not everyone in the world see what I have to offer, I prefer to stay low key and take care of any trouble that heads my way, IF it heads my way. If I can get extra stuff the wife will also have rifle kit, for now she just has the pistol kit and can use my rifle. She has one but needs more training/practice.

- Amount of Ammo carried on you and why?- rifle, 1 in the gun and 4 in a plate carrier/chest rig. Rifle stuff weighs a lot, if I get into some shit where the guns are coming out, I will be neutralizing the immediate threat and breaking contact. 5 mags worked for me in Afghanistan, I have a feeling it will work for the 2 leg critters over here too. 2 pistol mags on a belt, 1 in the gun. Same thought concept as the rifle, take out whatever is immediate and break contact. Shot placement is key, I am not using either of these weapons for suppressive fire or bounding movements. If I am going out to do something I will be using OWB stuff with a larger shirt to somewhat cover it, if it is really bad a second chance vest under a shirt. If it is the type of environment where you don't want to be seen carrying, IWB obviously. Rifle gear will be in the truck.

- If you plan to use both Overt and Covert then when and why for each?- Both, I prefer people not knowing what I have and what I can do. 75% of the time I prefer covert, but there is always that chance and point in time where overt is needed. Even then I am talking about a rifle and plate carrier, not full turtle shell armor, head sets, Kevlar etc. Covert will be belt kit and a under shirt vest(like a cop vest).


I hope that everyone can share info and some rational as why you go whit that. I will be post my response later.

it was easiest just to quote and write directly into it. I have been gone from this forum way too long, not sure if any of this was brought up previously in the thread, I will be reading through it tonight.

[jbjh]

I think that there are going to be escalating levels of overt/covert gear. I'm inclined to be very covert in the beginning, especially in getting home if the need arises.
As docsherm states though, a week or two later, my response to society, and theirs to me, might have changed drastically, and I expect that I will bristle accordingly.

[elephant]

One of my biggest concerns is to stay put or to hit the road. I know a lot of people prepare for just about every situation imaginable and they usually have all there gear in one location. If a tornado hit your home, you might end up with nothing and have to start over. Then again, having all your gear together means traveling with all your gear, which might make you vulnerable. I like the idea of having a few must have items at your home and a load out place close enough to get to with a 1/2 tank of gas and far enough away to get out of danger.

I don't really envision a Chinese take over or a stock market collapse but as seen more recently, a city like Dallas Tx. erupting into riots, looting and total anarchy on a larger scale than Baltimore or St. Louis. Possibly nation wide with looting worse than New Orleans/Katrina. It could be politically motivated or a new social movement aimed at a "politically correct" social cleansing.

(COVERT)30 minutes to get out of Dallas: Try not to freak out to much, check news channels, internet and get real time update of my surrounding and what is going on. Grab my bag with first aid kit, flash light, knife, satellite phone and batteries. Grab my Osprey suppressed HKUSP with 3 magazines, Noveske 7.5 SBR with Saker with 5 30rd mags. 5 gallon gas can I keep in garage along with a change of clothes, extra socks, shoes, case of water and a few food items. Grab my pets and head south for approx. 2 hours until I get to Hamilton where I have few months worth of food, water and keep 90% of my firearms and ammo that are conveniently organized in a mil spec gun locker. I have a 912 sq./ft. home on 12 acres that was built in the 1960's. I have power, gas and a small propane generator that can power a fridge and I couple of lights and maybe a small low watt TV. At this time I would possibly dress in a more "urban operator" fashion with 5.11 style pants, shirt and some type of hiking shoes and at this point I would openly carry a pistol, possibly carry an m4 and consider, under the circumstances, wearing a minimalistic molle vest for my phone, extra magazines etc.

(OVERT)All access is blocked, roads closed and your stuck in Dallas: I am at defcon 5, full red alert and my national security threat level is at 10( and that is on a scale from 1-5). Plate carrier goes on, operator hat goes on, Kuhl pants and shirt go on, im carrying my 7.5 Noveske on a sling over my shoulder as well as a HK USP in a holster. My attitude goes form easy going to "don't look at me".

[Defaultmp3]

I am at defcon 5, full red alert and my national security threat level is at 10( and that is on a scale from 1-5).

Pedant alert: DEFCON 5 is the least state of readiness.