Overt vs Covert Gear in a SHTF Situation

[DCtheGB]

Good point.....trench coat?

After some more thought my "trench coat" idea may not be too far off. With low viz armor and a low viz chest rig one could simply change your level easily. Wear the gear Overtly and then have a jacket to put on if need be to go a little more Covert. I would say the same could be done with a long gun in a bag but that would be much more time consuming. Unless you are using a very short SBR (7- 8" barrel and short stock) then it may be possible.

All I can think of is Omar from The Wire
omar-king-the-wire.jpg

[Ironman8]

If we're using Fergeson as an example, then for me it would be EDC+ or likely Covert (as listed on my first post / first page) if I was going about my day to day responsibilities. Mark's point about block to block ROL is spot on and may require compromise on what you WANT to carry vs what you SHOULD carry.

If I was part of a group protection ("watch") like those seen on rooftops and gas stations, then it would be overt.

Your town turning into Mogadishu would probably call for overt kit as well. But at that point, ROL is completely gone and it's every man for himself and I doubt you'd be the only one with some type of overt kit on display. Being in a group would be preferable here though.

[68W]

I really like the way the conversation has gone. It does seem to me there is a general consensus: stay covert if it is safely possible. Just a general rule there though and exceptions abound. A few have discussed the application of overt gear when in a group neighborhood watch or security detail. I think this is good sense. One of the big draw backs to overt is decent people that get nervous because they don't know you are a decent guy and thus Bubba on his roof with his 30.06 kills you as dead as the whitetail in his freezer because he thought you might have been coming to take his venison. If acting in some sort of organized capacity within your own community to keep your neighborhood safe because LE cannot do it for you then I like the use of overt gear. Hopefully your own neighbors will recognize you and your companions and see you for what you are and the idiots considering targeting your 'hood will move on top the next block.

One thing I'll tell you for certain is that if a Ferguson or Rodney king riot situation were happening and I had a business or friends business to defend I'd be as overt and gunned up as the day I entered Iraq. For deterrence and survivability.

Doc: that safe link you posted is interesting. In my first post in this thread I mentioned only having a cute little LCP at work to get home with in such situations for fear of storing a real EDC in the vehicle while in the hospital. Would you take that daily risk of having a handgun in your truck unattended for long hours everyday? I suppose that question can be answered by all comers too. ...Having 22 rounds of .40 sure sounds better than 7 rds of. 380 for such a walk through town.

[docsherm]

Doc: that safe link you posted is interesting. In my first post in this thread I mentioned only having a cute little LCP at work to get home with in such situations for fear of storing a real EDC in the vehicle while in the hospital. Would you take that daily risk of having a handgun in your truck unattended for long hours everyday? I suppose that question can be answered by all comers too. ...Having 22 rounds of .40 sure sounds better than 7 rds of. 380 for such a walk through town.

I work at a hospital. No carry for obvious reasons. I just the bag every day. We have security but they are just some rent-a-cops. It someone were to try and take my guns they would have to go through 3 locks and HAVE to remove a large section of my interior to get it. By the time that did it I would most likely hear them through the ED noise.........So yes I feel that it is worth it. If they take my entire truck then I am SOL....not because I got a $500 Glock stolen but more so because I got a $60K truck stolen. So yes, I feel that it is well worth it for the security that come with the fact that I can walk out to my truck in less than 5 min from my office and be armed.....perfect? No, but the best I can do.


A lot of people are talking about Bubba shooting you with a deer rifle if you are Overt. If that is the case then wouldn't Bubba also shoot you in the chest like a deer? If so then you should be good if you have quality plate. Most people do not train for head shots, even LEO. Center mass is what about 95% of the people train to shot at. Plates are your friend.

[Jellybean]

It's a grey area with respect to ROL- it's temporarily gone, but it will come back eventually (maybe). Minor offenses will probably not be followed up, but something major, like grand theft or murder would be, meaning self-defense killings might have to be justified when the dust settles. I would say in an LA riot / Fergusen / Katrina type scenario when people are rioting, looting, and otherwise acting like idiots, overt gear is a better choice if you are forced or choose to remain there for any reason. Whether one expects local ROL to be restored or not would definitely drive a great deal of decisions, but the "hard target" mentality seems to be the prudent choice here, much like the story about the guys who grabbed rifles and guarded the gas station in Fergusen, saving the owner from having his business destroyed.

This seems to fit Doc Sherm's "semi-permissive" environment the best, since you're not yet on a 2-way shooting range, but you could be forced into one at any time.

This.
If you're on your own "out there" then keep it covert. Especially a mob/social unrest situation. One lone average guy with a pistol isn't very scary when there's 100 of them versus you and your first 7-17 rounds before they clobber you. An SBR in a bag would be better, a little more intimidating if you did have to get it out, and a little more effective if you have to break and run, which IMHO, every situation "out there" [minus pro-active turf defending activities] calls for the "run away" response.

Flip side, if you're going to defend an area, armed protection of self/neighborhood/business/etc. then THAT is the time for busting out the serious gear.
With the caveat of, it not being "bubba gear"- I mean guys that look professional with well set up, not sloppy gear, and ACT professional too- the whole game revolves around them *feeling* that you're the bigger dog in the yard, because there's still 100 of them to the 1-4,6,etc. of you.

Another angle to think about- if we're not complete WROL, then sometimes a little social media propaganda can go a long way in the aftermath if it all goes bad. I'm reminded of the picture from Ferguson of the [white] guy in a PC/Chest rig combo, posing with the [black] lady from the "bakery down the road".... If it went south for that guy, there's immediate public affirmation afterwards that he was the "good guy".

Good point.....trench coat?

That makes it very difficult to access the situation and adapt to it if it is changing every 100 meters of so. Can't exactly just ditch your long gun and PC every time you see a LEO.....

But you CAN take a headlong dive into the nearest bushes....

A lot of people are talking about Bubba shooting you with a deer rifle if you are Overt.....

Also don't forget the overly paranoid bubbas that may shoot you no matter what you look like....

[sevenhelmet]

I completely agree with your post, good assessment.

Are you saying this applies for both a static position and while on the move to a different location?

I was thinking more along the lines of a static position, but I think some great points have been made regarding being on the move in such a situation.

[Ironman8]

A lot of people are talking about Bubba shooting you with a deer rifle if you are Overt. If that is the case then wouldn't Bubba also shoot you in the chest like a deer? If so then you should be good if you have quality plate. Most people do not train for head shots, even LEO. Center mass is what about 95% of the people train to shot at. Plates are your friend.

As you well know, incoming rounds are never a good thing. Also, I'd hate to ruin a perfectly good plate by taking a round that I didn't have to take. Not to mention, you're counting on Bubba to actually hit where he's aiming

This might open up a different avenue of discussion, but if things are bad enough that you have to go overt and there are Bubbas up on rooftops, then maybe we should start thinking about traveling at night as opposed to daytime when traversing unsecured areas...unless you have a really damn good reason to do so and/or are in a group. NODs are expensive but would be worth their weight in gold for situations like that IMO.

[itsturtle]

Unfortunately, where I work I can not carry anything on me. We go through a metal detector and everything is scanned through xray. Our vehicles are subject to search as well so I can't have anything in there either. I have to be careful not to leave pocket knives or ammo in the vehicle because it can get me in a lot of trouble if they happen to search on that day. So as far as getting home from work is concerned, speed and momentum are about all I have to work with. Luckily, work is somewhat on the outskirts of town so it will mostly be back roads/fields or interstates depending on how bad the situation is. Of course, this all depends on whether or not I can even get out of the facility.

If I'm out and about, I always conceal a pistol, extra mag, light, and knife. My family also carries, so if I am with one of them I at least have one or two more weapons. Most of our vehicles have the basic first aid kit, water, some food and blankets.

Once home, I have my rifle with two mags and a minimum of three loaded mags on a chest rig with a pistol holster and two more mags. There is also another rifle, two 870s, and 3 other pistols around belonging to various family members. I don't have any armor due to cost but if I ever get a better job, I'd like to get something. Our house is a bit out from town so I don't anticipate too much in terms of trespassers or thieves, but we have quite a line of sight in all directions. There is always a week or two of food in the pantry. We have propane for heat that is more or less a backup to the heat pump. We have a water source on property. A backup generator is one of the next purchases we would like to make. I've always thought that the best plan is to get home, get small and out of sight, and wait out the initial chaos. We can make it at least a week before needing to worry about supplies, and we could do some decent defense for a bit as well. Not everyone in the house is athletic and my son is only 18 months so it limits some options.

Personally, I don't want to draw any attention to myself. I try not to make myself look like an easy target, but I don't like to advertise either. If it got to the point where I needed to deal with one of these scenarios, you will never see me if I can help it. I'll be honest, I'm a bit skeptical of the whole SHTF invasion, unrest, martial law situations being likely. The thing I prepare for is mostly weather emergencies. I may be naive, but I don't anticipate roving gangs looking to collect everyone's guns and food. The most I would expect is some crack head flipping out over his meth lab being taken by a tornado and choosing the wrong house to take shelter in.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Several have brought up if ROL is present or not. Is it different if it is localized or wide spread? As an example localized such as LA during the riots or wide spread such as the Mogadishu. In theory there is also precived short term and long term.

In LA during the riots technically there was still ROL but the supply of LEO did not even meet the demand at the time. So is ROL there or is it gone?

If we were to see civil unrest in several American cities at once but not in my immediate AO then I'd move my DEFCON meter up a notch but not roll out the hard kit just yet, though it would close by. If a riot broke out in my immediate area then I'd either move to the house and button it up (remain indoors kitted up) or we would egress out of the area all together depending on the severity.

Using the Rodney King riots as an example. LAPD did not respond to calls. They for all sense and purposes kept to themselves due to the fact it was open season on anyone in a uniform. Even LAFD was being shot at when they attempted to respond to structure fires. So even though LE is on duty and they are all hands on deck that doesn't mean they will respond to your crys for assistance. Just ask the Korean-American business owners of greater South-Central Los Angeles. So I would say the ROL is out the window as no one would be coming to help you. This was the same for natural disasters as Katrina. Yet when folks armed themselves in NOLA the local government their began the confiscation of privately owned small arms. Another reason not to advertise that you are packing firepower.

[Moose-Knuckle]

As you well know, incoming rounds are never a good thing. Also, I'd hate to ruin a perfectly good plate by taking a round that I didn't have to take. Not to mention, you're counting on Bubba to actually hit where he's aiming

This might open up a different avenue of discussion, but if things are bad enough that you have to go overt and there are Bubbas up on rooftops, then maybe we should start thinking about traveling at night as opposed to daytime when traversing unsecured areas...unless you have a really damn good reason to do so and/or are in a group. NODs are expensive but would be worth their weight in gold for situations like that IMO.

Selco, a blogger who survived the Bosnian War talks about this in his writings. They would only go out and move at night as sniper fire was such a threat. During such chaos there would be a lot of trigger happy/kill crazy people not just those looking at releaving you of your possessions.

Edit to add a link to his site:

http://shtfschool.com/