That and a couple tomahawk missiles into Iraqi Government targets for being pussies against ISIS, and for old times sake. It has been over a decade since we did bombs over Baghdad, we're overdue.Originally Posted by signal4l
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Senior Member
That and a couple tomahawk missiles into Iraqi Government targets for being pussies against ISIS, and for old times sake. It has been over a decade since we did bombs over Baghdad, we're overdue.
Senior Member
I haven't seen any video of the event, but based upon the Iraqi version of event and the Blackwater version of events, this whole thing is bullshit. I would not bake Bergdahl a welcome home cake, I think he needs to be in jail.
It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.
Chuck, we miss ya man.
كافر
Senior Member
Which Blackwater version are you referencing?
The shooting stopped when a Blackwater employee oriented his weapon at Slatten and commanded him to stop shooting non-combatants.
I'll assume it's not that one.
The "Blackwater Version" you referenced in post #2 includes at least two items that are obvious bullshit:
1) The notion that armed insurgents had disguised themselves as IP... manned the IP checkpoints at Nisour Square... and started performing Police tasks including directing traffic.
2) The statement by Marty Strong that the convoy was hit with "a large explosive device." No IED was detonated on the convoy. The only IED that occurred was 45 minutes earlier and over one mile away from Nisour Square.
Senior Member
DoS should be barred by law from ever employing contract security in a foreign country. If they can't provide their own internal security, they have no business being there.
What if this whole crusade's a charade?
And behind it all there's a price to be paid
For the blood which we dine
Justified in the name of the holy and the divine…
Senior Member
What makes them obvious bullshit? The BW guys had no idea how long the guys in the police uniforms had been there or what they were doing prior to their arrival. Several sources state they were hit with an explosive device, some stating it was a mortar.
I'm just not buying that the BW guys decided "hey let's have some fun and shoot as many non coms as we can." The reality is they were fighting guys who don't wear uniforms (except when they dress like police or friendly forces), guys who often who are willing to put civilians at risk by fighting among them and will even use women and sometimes children to conduct attacks.
Even by the Iraqi account of events, the Iraqis actually shot first. Sounds to me like a bunch of guys who saw plenty of evidence of an ambush and did their best with the situation at hand. This is a long way from things like the Staff Sergeant Robert Bales incident.
It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.
Chuck, we miss ya man.
كافر
Senior Member
OR they just didn't want to encounter resistance to getting back to the business as usual of slaughtering each other.
So why did the Iraqis never kick out Saddam and his despot sons? Why did they have to be liberated by these evil murdering Americans?
"In a nut shell, if it ever goes to Civil War, I'm afraid I'll be in the middle 70%, shooting at both sides" — 26 Inf
"We have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them." — CNN's Don Lemon 10/30/18
Member
I have several close friends who were on that detail and who speak very highly of the men who brought this incident to light. They are men of integrity and selfless sense of duty to their jobs and to the people they were there to protect. The individuals who were found guilty are far from the sacrificial lambs everyone wants to hope they are. Its not that simple.
This is the problem with the old notion that American police officers were trained and behave similar enough to military that they would make good DoS or PSS/WPPS contractors. For those who think this was a one sided cover up, nearly everyone who had an ounce of professionalism from that team knew that what was happening was wrong. It was a few select individuals who had proven their willingness to kill as many people as possible for any reason they could seem to twist to justify UOF. They already had a history of suspicious actions and boasting about their desire to slaughter anyone they could make look bad. Many of them were going to put a stop to it one way or another, but a few courageous guys seized the momentum and yes...had to stop the murder of innocent people by physically controlling the murderers.
I know it's hard for some to fit into their narrative but this is a justice that I don't believe these guys deserved. They should have been tried by the Iraqi government and forced to serve their sentences their, as they willingly traveled to Iraq with the intent to kill and to hide behind a lack of accountability and infrastructure as an excuse. This was every bit as malicious as the Mai Lei massacre, the only thing that was different here is that someone with the testicular fortitude to do the right thing was present.
The consequences of the actions of those murderers was paid for by more than their own prison sentence. So before we say they are just misunderstood or they were just doing the world a favor by killing innocent mooooooslims (because we know there's no such thing, don't we Mooseknuckle) it's probably important to remember that a few guys who never should have been there lead to the deaths of an unknown number of American servicemen and contractors. Yeah, some actions have a price, and there's a reason professional military forces and real high standard PMC/PSC guys I've worked there with have never acted like this.
Team Medic, Task Force Zangaro
"The Cat's Originals"
Senior Member
My views aren't based upon "hope." Mine are based upon the two accounts I have seen. I don't know anyone who knew someone, I haven't seen any secret videos. If there was supporting evidence it really should have been made available, because right now it just looks like a sacrifice.
I have no problem calling a bad guy a bad guy, even if he is killing Muslims. We saw enough of the evidence in the Robert Bales incident to conclude who the "bad guy" was. We haven't seen the same in this case, most of us don't know a guy who knew a guy who saw a video.
It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.
Chuck, we miss ya man.
كافر
Senior Member
Probably the same reason Apple never voted out Steve Jobs or the Caps don't fire Ovechkin.
As I said, anyone who doesn't think these dirtbags got what they deserved probably also believes that Bergdahl served with "honor and distinction."
BINGO.
The big boy rules only worked when high caliber people were employed. Once WPPS/WPS grew out of control and started being staffed with alcoholic thrice divorced Alabama State Troopers, it was no longer possible to allow them to operate without adequate oversight or accountability (really this was a problem from the start). By the time it became obvious what needed to be done to enforce some standards and discipline, the contract had grown into a behemoth and was no longer manageable.
We all watched it happen, and lived through incidents which were unprofessional at best and catastrophic and counterproductive to our efforts at worst.
This is what happened.
As nice as it would have been to see Iraqi justice in this case, that's not the deal they were operating under.
I would have delivered swift American justice, and made sure it stayed in the Iraqi press right up until their execution, which I would have carried out in Baghdad.
I also would have the DoS Contracting Officers who let that contract with inadequate controls serving the 30 year prison sentences.
...or anything.
You know those fishing shows in Alaska?
I ****ing love them. I don't know shit about catching a fish, but I just go with it... and it entertains me.
Anybody who knows anything about Patrolling knows that every version of the story they told smells like bullshit.
(and we also have their co workers confirming as such)
It's fun to pretend that these guys were railroaded, but they brought this on themselves... and they got off light.
Actions have consequences.
Member
I understand that it's hard to make an informed opinion without a lot of supporting evidence for either side. And when combined with the way the current admin has gotten it wrong or completely backwards so many times, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that's the case here.
To clarify, I don't base my opinion on "knowing a guy who knows a guy who has a cousin that saw a video on the internet" or anything like that. These are guys with highly regarded reputations in their military communities, many of the Special Operations community. And my opinion of them was working various types of contracts in high risk or high threat environments where they, to a one, all conducted themselves with a level of composure and professionalism that few in the industry embody. This wasn't something that the whistle blowers sat on for years and dug up a video on. This was a ball that began rolling the same day that bunked ass incident occured when the guys I know risked their entire careers and reputation to do the right thing.
As an aside, this is part of the reason many mil folks and prior mil turned contractors are so disturbed by the lack of internal discipline and enforcing standards that we see in the LE communities these days. We come from a culture where one man's actions represent everyone who shares his profession or title. We are used to busting each other's asses nonstop to make sure that even the biggest dumbass in our groups is a good representative of the entity we belong to, and that at all times our conduct reflects what we want the world to see as American values. Obviously there are exceptions, but we have a better practice of "eating our own". This case is another example of what many of us would like to see from the public servants who we hope are doing the same thing in our communities while we're away. Rather than honoring a thin green line or some kind of unspoken agreement that we will always cover for each other, there's a history of exemplary individuals standing up for the right thing even when it creates great difficulty in their own lives. The guys I know that were there that day had to compete with the reputation and slanderous allegations that came from the command elements involved in this incident who were facing serious repercussions for their inaction when issues were glaringly obvious. They never caved in or cowered, never sought immunity or special treatment. They did the right thing because that's what men of honor and integrity do as a sense of duty.
Team Medic, Task Force Zangaro
"The Cat's Originals"
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