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Thread: Hypothetical: What Still Needs Fixing?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    Show me where it did, and by how much.

    I would rather the the supply system is always stocked with the type of batteries I need, and I don't care if it is in the stock, pistol grip or magically sends power to my accessories from my pocket. And, a single battery in a single easy to access battery well can be replaced more easily than three or or four separate batteries here and there on the weapon. An Aimpoint lasts 8 years on a single AA, that's not a high drain item that is almost incidental to the system, the average NVS gets about 40 hours to a battery, if you are only powering those two, you will still only get about 40 hours. The big drain is the PEQ, and that should have a new battery after every operation that requires it.

    Advantages:
    1) simpler supply system, only need one battery.
    2) simpler operator maintenance, only need to replace one battery, and only need one type of battery
    3) improved storage requirements, no batteries in the individual items
    4) overall saving in weight.
    5) removing components removes drain from the battery

    Disadvantages:
    1) If you're not smart, everything fails at once. Of course, if you're in the dark and your PVS battery goes dead that fully powered red-dot is not of much use...

    People used to say the same thing about polymer pistol frames....
    You could also program the powered rails to cut power to certain systems in battery saver mode when charge gets low like your cell phone.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    Price. polymers with the required stiffness for a free-float handguard are expensive. You also have to understand that 90% of the AR shooting, and free-float buying public are casual shooters that rarely get the barrel hot enough for metal handguards to be come uncomfortable. And the military is going to wait until the powered rail interface is standardized, or dropped, before they start spendiing lots of money on the "next great thing".

    I am quite aware. The use of gloves was brought up as an issue, and that was the specific point I was adressing. I don't think the issue is as big as some make it out to be, re metal handguards and temperature issues.

    I saw Lancer Systems has CF handguards, and as you say they were quite expensive:
    http://store.lancer-systems.com/cate...ber_handguards

    That said, I'm not quite convinced that price is the sole reason why they are not currently in use by mil. I think there is more to it.

    No, handguards gain heat from convection, conduction and radiation and all parts lose heat through radiation as well as convection.

    Convection? The handguard has no properties that draws heat away from the barrel (unlike air or water). Some of the heat transfer is from conduction via the barrel nut, and some through radiation. True that some heat is lost through radiation, but the main means of cooling these weapons is through convection - air cooling.

    With the radiation shields in the handgaurds, the M16A1 and A2 do a reasonable job of keeping the handguards fron becoming uncomfortable except under the most extreme rates of fire. At maximum continuous rate of fire you'll never have a problem.
    The G3 also has a "radiation shield", but still gets plenty hot. The 7.62 does produce more heat energy.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    The G3 also has a "radiation shield", but still gets plenty hot. The 7.62 does produce more heat energy.
    It's not that polymer handguards will not get hot, it's that metal handguards will burn your hands while the polymer handguards will be uncomfortably warm under the same conditions. I can tell you from experience, the thin barrel of a G3 pattern rifle will get hot quick
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    It's not that polymer handguards will not get hot, it's that metal handguards will burn your hands while the polymer handguards will be uncomfortably warm under the same conditions. I can tell you from experience, the thin barrel of a G3 pattern rifle will get hot quick
    I know it get's hot, as I said I was issued one for several years. I actually burned my arm after a break contact drill, coming in contact with the barrel for a split second.

    As to burning you hands on a metal hand guard, not sure I agree with that assertion. Sorry.
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  5. #95
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    Oh good grief! I don't care if you buy it or not, but your assertions do not change the laws of physics. Aluminum will transfer heat to and from your skin much quicker than the polymer materials used to make modern quality handguards.

    Are pots and pans made from polymer? Or aluminum? Which is easier to drink hot coffee from- a tin cup? Or a plastic (polymer) cup? Why do you think the "chicken mitt" (an oven glove shaped like a chicken) is a running joke on the FalFiles when the subject of StG-58 stamped steel handguards comes up?

    I was an aviation technician before you were itching your daddy's pants and turning wrenches on cars and shooting before that. I've learned a thing or two along the way about PPE and what affects heat, cold, dust, vibration, kneeling, squatting, lifting and so on have on the body. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how some young whipper-snapper thinks something works because all that thinking in the world won't change how it actually works

    (Oh crap, did I just use the phrase "itching your daddy's pants" and "young whipper snapper"? I think I'm turning into an Old Curmudgeon)
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    Oh good grief! I don't care if you buy it or not, but your assertions do not change the laws of physics. Aluminum will transfer heat to and from your skin much quicker than the polymer materials used to make modern quality handguards.

    Are pots and pans made from polymer? Or aluminum? Which is easier to drink hot coffee from- a tin cup? Or a plastic (polymer) cup? Why do you think the "chicken mitt" (an oven glove shaped like a chicken) is a running joke on the FalFiles when the subject of StG-58 stamped steel handguards comes up?

    I was an aviation technician before you were itching your daddy's pants and turning wrenches on cars and shooting before that. I've learned a thing or two along the way about PPE and what affects heat, cold, dust, vibration, kneeling, squatting, lifting and so on have on the body. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how some young whipper-snapper thinks something works because all that thinking in the world won't change how it actually works

    (Oh crap, did I just use the phrase "itching your daddy's pants" and "young whipper snapper"? I think I'm turning into an Old Curmudgeon)
    Excellent argument.

    You assertion was this:

    it's that metal handguards will burn your hands
    That is pure and utter bullshit.

    I don't care that you are much older than me (although I doubt you know my age); and the fact that you are using snide remarks in your argument really shows your maturity.
    I can back up my assertions with thousands of shooters over many, many years who have not burned their hands on either metal or polymer/plastic handguards. Handguards do not get that ****ing hot! Why is that so hard to understand?
    If the handguard getting uncomfortably hot is an issue for you, then start shooting with gloves. Your personal anecdotal experience on this matter doesn't equate to this being a big issue.

    If you are shooting so much that you cannot hold the rifle, then you are probably way over the recommended rate of fire any ways. The only weapon I have shot, where the handguard got extremely hot, was the Honey Badger (after many people had shot it before me).

    Not even on a machinegun used in a sustained fire role, shooting several hundred rounds in a short time frame, does the handguard or barrel casing get too hot to carry.

    But what do I know, right?

    This a forum for discussion; you should expect that people can actually disagree with something you say.....
    Last edited by Arctic1; 05-10-15 at 15:46.
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  7. #97
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    Y'all are getting cranky about a hypothetical discussion on the internet... and if the AR was so great to begin with, why are there thousands of changes and upgrades available on the market today (not to mention obsolete or failed ideas) allowing the extensive customization the platform is known for?

    Back to rationality:

    So, excess heat from the propellant makes the weapon unpleasantly warm after a period of use, regardless of what the handguard is made of. That heat has to go somewhere. Water-cooling hasn't been a thing since WW1, for good reason. Would some sort of active fan system (something small, like from a laptop) continually moving air from the rear of the rail to the front (ie away from the user) help this issue at all? Sure, another doodad to hang off the gun, but could it possibly work? Maybe as an integrated component of the Powered Rail system?

    Or maybe someone could try an idea like a detachable heat sink from the Mass Effect games...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    If we could control all the variables, we'd just put all the bad luck on our enemies and stay home.

  8. #98
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    Heat from the propellant and hot gases, but also heat from the contact/friction between the projectile passing through the barrel.

    One common approach to help cooling is to increase the surface area of the barrel - dimpling or fluting. I think the jury is out on the actual effectiveness. It does reduce the weight of the barrel itself.

    A thicker barrel profile doesn't reduce the generated heat, but makes the barrel more resilient to the effects of heat - it also adds weight.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  9. #99
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    Everyone lighten up a little, mmmkay? It's an internet argument.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leuthas View Post
    You are literally validating that these are indeed issues. The fact that you're saying, "Oh, just wear gloves" is a little off; the point of the discussion is correcting the issues themselves, not methods with which we can ignore them.
    No I didn't.

    Locking the bolt back is very easy on the AR/M4. If you have an issue with that, well you need more training.
    The Magpul BAD lever is a mod/accessory to make this process easier, but I have never installed one in any of my rifles.

    Wearing gloves is for protection, just as you would wear eyes, ears, vest, helmet or a hat (based on your needs). You do not need gloves with polymer handguards though, so I don't know what your point was going with that argument. Wearing gloves is beneficial if you have metal/aluminum handguards and you plan to shoot a large amount of ammo. It is also helpful in the cold and wet environments, but is not a must.
    Last edited by JusticeM4; 05-13-15 at 21:04.

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