Which carrier? pig brig, pig pc, Mayflower APC.....

[Allah_Snackbah]

redacted for brevity

good post, lots of good info and a rare dose of reality in terms of typical plate carrier speak. I did not have such an issue with the PIG when i had it as you describe but i am probably just a bigger framed dude than you. The carrier is a monster, and lord is it heavy.

I am just starting to mess around with a JPC I've had sitting in my basement for a few months because i at first didn't like it, imho it would be a great option for the OP that wouldn't break the bank.

OP wants slick-ish pc that can be loaded out for training and still be comfortable.... ...welcome to the struggle lol. Like JB said above, i think your 8-10 load out is a bit high if you plan on carrying it all on your vest. Every actual training class or hard range day I've been to, dudes show up with carriers double stacked with pmags, by the end of the day they seem to have a lot less shit hanging off their PC, yet a lot of them fail to learn from it and show up the very next year with a similar rig. Keep it simple, like JB said, side plates have specific uses, my 6x6's current use are holding up my stack of extra pmags i no longer have stuffed in the front of my plate carrier, but instead adorn the shelf of my safe!

Anyways back to the JPC, here is a picture of how i chose to rig mine, its not the "devgru loadout", and I might make some crye neckbeards mad, but i do this on both my JPC and CPC and so far it works, i flatten out the factory shingle and velcro it in tight, then put mag carriers of my choice, in this case HSGI, over the top of them on the molle web. i use the HSGI pouches as my regular mag pouches, but if in the event i needed to stack myself 8" off the dirt in prone with extra mags, i always could. Just an idea, its been working for me.


I have hydro on my back... and thats it man! i rock a pair of hsgi pistol mag carriers on my regular pants belt at 10-11 o'clock, a pair of ITW fastmags behind that, and thats about it. This covers 90% of my range/training needs, its comfortable, not heavy, and relatively affordable.

A different option from the JPC, which would cost you a little more, would be the FS strandhogg, i had one, i really liked it, but i ended up selling it because it didn't quite work with my system.

Good luck man hopefully this helped.

[piggly_wiggly]

I'm glad someone pointed this post out to me. As one of the designers of the BRIG, I'd like to respond.

Don't get the BRIG.
It seems ultra-scalable, but it is not.

The BRIG is a sub-1 lb PC system that can go from carrying just plates, to carrying front sub loads, front and back soft armor, side plates, side molle, shoulder pads and pontoons, and rear hydration and/or load carriage. In fact we also have side soft armor carriers coming out from Point Blank shortly. Good, bad or indifferent, the BRIG IS "ultra-scalable". Personally I would reach for it before a PIG PC, mainly due to it's lower profile and weight.

It is also not good at wearing lo-pro under a shirt, due to the poor design of how the shoulder straps are attached to the front of the plate bags. Basically, instead of the straps pulling the plate against your chest when worn, the BRIG straps are attached behind the plate, and don't do this, so you have the top and corners of the plates sticking straight up in front of you- and this is with triple curve plates. So worn under a shirt, with the corners sticking up, it makes for a very obvious corner protrusion under your shirt.

The OP never asked about wearing this under a shirt. Yes, the BRIG is not good at trying to conceal under a shirt. However, your desire to wear this under a shirt does not redefine the design intent of the BRIG's strap attachment. Citing "poor design" for not working in a capacity it wasn't designed to work in is like complaining that a Ferrari is poorly designed to tow trailer homes. The strap placement was designed specifically for improved plate placement on your upper thoracic region, and cost a lot more to do so than a simple apex seam strap. Having the straps come out of the seam was the easiest and most cost-effective option, and while more concealable, it didn't improve on any other existing designs already out there with regards to plate placement as a protective function. Also, low-profile does not always mean "low-visability". The BRIG was primarily designed as an overt plate carrier. Read our product description and watch our video. In fact our product description has always stated that it's "a low profile way to carry just your plates directly over your shirt...". Compare a Medium-ESAPI Brig to all the other overt plate carriers designed for Medium-ESAPI plates and please show us how the BRIG is not one of the lowest-profile by comparison.

Subsequent to the BRIG launch we queued up a "Low-Vis" version of the BRIG to be made (aka Concealment BRIG), thanks to folks like yourself looking for that design profile and mission requirement, but we never went ahead with it- partially because by then other companies were coming out with their own versions of BRIG-esque shoe-horn fit plate carriers with seam mounted straps, but mostly because we've been working on a product that is even more Low-Vis than a Concealment BRIG would have been.

Further... with an H-harness chest rig, when you go to throw the thing over your head with the BRIG PC on, the cross-strap on the chest rig always falls into the gap between the rear plate sticking up and your back, which or course means it hangs up half-donned, and then you have to do some real monkey-armed contortions to flip the cross strap over the plate.

Considering we designed the BRIG to be used with BRIG Chest Rig panels specifically, we're looking at another apples to oranges comparison. Citing your difficulty in using it with different chest rigs only shows that you had difficulty using it with different chest rigs. That doesn't have anything to do with its original design intent.

I was also less than impressed with the quality- the material used is NOT cordura, and as I had the BRIG with the MOLLE back I tried to mount a water bladder. Within a few hours of simple messing with the PC, working out different configs and taking it on and off, I could already see the shoulder strap corners starting to pull away where they were sewn to the rear plate bag.

Not using Cordura has nothing to do with the quality- it has everything to do with the weight.

The following is verbatim from our Systema video:

"By using minimalist designs and lightweight materials we've managed to allow the user to configure exactly what they need for a lightweight mission without any excess bulk or weight associated with larger systems."

Plate carrier interiors do not see the abrasion that the exteriors do, and the BRIG exterior is 2 layers of material (loop velcro + 400D nylon). In the case of the Multicam version, it does use 500D Cordura on the exterior rear carrier as there is no 400D alternative in MC. The shoulder straps will not pull away unless subjected to a load that would make any other plate carrier strap pull away from the body. We started with a reverse-W stitch (you riggers out there know how strong this is) and down the line changed to a box-X per the recommendation of First Spear to make it easier on their sewers. A back tack is cheap and easy to do- acceptable for a lot of other brands, but not for us.

And I don't believe you can add side armor, most simply because the elastic side 'bund is in no way stiff enough to support any such weight.

The PIG Elastic CB Side Plate Carrier comes with a plastic stiffener and supports the weight just fine in a proven design that has been in use for years by several brands. As mentioned above, we also have side soft armor products for the BRIG coming soon from Point Blank.

So basically the BRIG is utter misery, not GTG at all.

So, when seen in the context of what the BRIG was primarily designed for, your comments are not applicable. The BRIG may not have been GTG for your application, but that doesn't define everyone else's needs. Is the BRIG the right rig for everyone? Clearly not.

As for the OP's questions, here are some answers:

Looking to get a carrier and plates. Civvy use, training, classes, late night noises, etc.. Would like it to be quick donning for the late night noises but be scalable for more load out during training, e.g 8-10 ar mags, side sapis, ifak, couple tourniquets, pitol mags, hydration pack, etc. 95+% of time would like it to be slick-ish. Anybody have experience with these platforms?

We sell all 3. They are all GTG but with many variables that differentiate them. With regards to the BRIG specifically, you can meet all your above needs.

I really like the PIG BRIG due to the ability to scale as well as leave slick and be able to throw on with simply closing one side of the cumber. Also can start out minimally and add other items, mag holders, pads, cumbers, etc. I'm concerned that I wouldn't be able to use side plates since the front doesn't have a flap like the PIG PC/Mayflower APC to keep more secure. Can side plates still be effectively added to the Systema? Can it be loaded out to be basically the same as the PIG PC and if so, what would need to be purchased? Does the hook and loop wear out over time?

You can use side plates, and we'll be offering side soft armor as well soon. You can load it out to nearly the same as the PIG PC or any other overt PC for that matter when using the BRIG All Molle CR and PIG Elastic Cummerbund Molle Sleeves. And YES, ALL hook and loop wears out over time, regardless of who makes the Plate Carrier.

Hope that helps and have a nice day!

p_w

[Jellybean]

Hmmm… I think there’s some fog of the internet going on here, so let me get one thing out of the way up front- my previous was not meant as an attempt to trash SKD’s gear. Completely irrelevant to the topic, but I have also done plenty of business with SKD and have not had a hiccup.
My writeup was simply a No-BS comparison of the major hit points of the three PC’s the OP was looking at based on my experience with them, and how those seemed to relate to the OP’s needs (hence why I didn’t get any more detailed about the PIG). I figured since we all have different subjective experiences with a piece of gear it would be plain that there would be an understood “IMHO”/"YMMV" as people read it. Perhaps not…

I am just going to touch on this part as I have probably the most experience with the PIG PC out there, if not, I certainly know it damn well. I am 5'10" and usually 165 / 32 inch waist, sometimes less, depending on how long or how hard a deployment is. I have been rocking our PIG PC since 2009. It's been to AFG and Back and all the training in between. I am "sized" for a medium ESAPI shaped plate but always prefer a small. I have never had any issues getting the proper stance or grip with my service pistol, or had the Plate area FOOTPRINT disrupt anything that I need to do during my course of work. I have had issues with other armors systems affecting my job, mainly in my ability to throw a hand grenade..... That is a whole other story with a funny but happy ending.
Anyways I run our PIG PC kevlar soft armor inserts with SMALL Plates and have never had any sizing issues. I do NOT use side Hard plates as they affect/hurt my poor little hips, especially in the Afghan mountains. I do wear side soft armor, but I have never found a body armor system where side hard plates were comfy for my body type and I have access to a metric ton of gear. I run 4 rifle mags, a large medical kit, NVG/ Utility pouch, and two radio pouches (MBITR and SATCOM/PRC152), either a PIG 2L or EMDOM Veh. Hydration carrier if I needed to carry a PRC117F. My loadout was as slimmed down as I could get it for the tasks at hand.
Below is a picture of me on my last tour rocking our PIG PC with said loadout. I am a small guy in my line of work and the PIG PC is not swimming on me.

This is interesting info- I am also a sized Med. plate, and PC’s in Medium sizes generally fit me fine. I do not have an issue firing a handgun, or shouldering a rifle (with an STR stock).
Now, the backstory here, the PIG being the first PC I ever had, I had read all sorts of reviews pre-buy and folks were all like “yeah, it fits great/comfy/awesome”. And then I got one and I’m standing in the thing going “how the hell does this not fit”? At the time I didn’t know all the other “medium” sized carriers I’d eventually try would fit- you could actually go back here on M4C to before I bought an APC, and I’ve likely got posts asking for dimensions on how big an APC was, because I didn’t want to spend another 300 bucks on another carrier that didn’t fit. Maybe someday I’ll have to try a PIG again.
But per my writeup, considering the PIG is stated as “once size fits most” on the website with the ability to run Small to XL plates, given what I’ve seen Vs multiple other PCs (aside those listed here as well), and considering that a PC has to be at least a certain size to fit the larger plates, versus other PCs that are cut much more closely to the individual plate sizes, I think my assessment of it being for larger folks was fair.

The BRIG is a sub-1 lb PC system that can go from carrying just plates, to carrying front sub loads, front and back soft armor, side plates, side molle, shoulder pads and pontoons, and rear hydration and/or load carriage. In fact we also have side soft armor carriers coming out from Point Blank shortly. Good, bad or indifferent, the BRIG IS "ultra-scalable".

I agree with this from the standpoint you mentioned, with the number of ways if can be configured. However, my point about scaleability was going off the level of loadout the OP wanted the ability to plus up to, versus the requirement of the carrier being “95% slick/low-profile”.
Personally, I don’t see the BRIG carrying that much weight well, in and of itself (versus a full PC).
Considering I have yet to run across anyone either in person or online running their BRIG in “full load” configuration with side plates and everything else, I think that opinion has some substance. Unless I’m missing something….
That’s why I made a point to talk about wear with a chest rig, for quick addition of your full load while using the BRIG in its best configuration, ie, slick.
Now of course you could get around the issues I mentioned with a swift clip attachment chest rig or front flap. Obviously I dropped the ball here and should have mentioned this as the option to nullify the issues with a standard chest rig- but as it was late and as I already had half a page of text written up, I figured with the proliferation of such rigs, as well options for front panels from SKD, this was kind of a 1+1=2 thing.
So, OP if the info about the chest rig compatibility with the BRIG was misleading, my bad.

The OP never asked about wearing this under a shirt ….Also, low-profile does not always mean "low-visability"

You’re right, and I understand your statement about how the BRIG was meant to be worn.
However…. My point about the concealability was going off the second line there. Of all the people I have talked to about gear, almost unanimously when they say they want a “low profile” or “slick” carrier, and I ask them to clarify exactly what that means to them they say “well I want to be able to throw a shirt over it for concealability.”
Usually followed directly afterwards by “…and then I can throw a chest rig on top with the rest of my stuff as needed”.
And I'm sure guys in the gear industry have heard this even a thousand times more.

Hence why I pointed out the issues with that course of action using a BRIG- sure it was a bit of a SWAG based on the OP, but since I’ve already tried it, and since a big part of the conversation centered around “scalability” I wanted to point out that this was not a great idea with this particular PC, before the OP went out and bought one like I did, thinking that this issue didn’t exist.

Plate carrier interiors do not see the abrasion that the exteriors do, and the BRIG exterior is 2 layers of material (loop velcro + 400D nylon). In the case of the Multicam version, it does use 500D Cordura on the exterior rear carrier as there is no 400D alternative in MC. The shoulder straps will not pull away unless subjected to a load that would make any other plate carrier strap pull away from the body. We started with a reverse-W stitch (you riggers out there know how strong this is) and down the line changed to a box-X per the recommendation of First Spear to make it easier on their sewers…..
The PIG Elastic CB Side Plate Carrier comes with a plastic stiffener and supports the weight just fine in a proven design that has been in use for years by several brands. As mentioned above, we also have side soft armor products for the BRIG coming soon from Point Blank.

Interesting info- thanks for explaining that.

I have redacted the “quality issues” portion of my writeup in light of this.
My issue with what appeared to be the rear shoulder strap corner beginning to pull was based on other items I’ve had, especially in regard to the thin nylon material, where once it starts to stretch/pull in a corner like that, its days are numbered.

The issue I had with potentially mounting heavy items, like armor, on the BRIG elastic ‘bund is that it’s very ‘stretchy”- more so than the actual PIG elastic replacement ‘bund that I had gotten to retrofit the APC with. I’ve seen a few elastic-type cummberbunds, and with the exception of the PIG bund, which seems to have a good bit of inherent stiffness as well as elasticity, they all seemed too “stretchy” to hold up any weight without severe sagging/bouncing.
Envision wearing your pistol on an elastic belt, and I think that will help explain the concerns I had with the BRIG elastic cummberbund.

So, when seen in the context of what the BRIG was primarily designed for, your comments are not applicable. The BRIG may not have been GTG for your application, but that doesn't define everyone else's needs. Is the BRIG the right rig for everyone? Clearly not.

Again, since this is an open thread on an open forum, see my previous about the implied “IMHO”/"YMMV" understood to be tacked to every post here.

Thanks for your info.
I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

[skd_tactical]

OP - did you find what you wanted? If not feel free to pm me or email us at CS@skdtac.com

I have used our gear CONUS and OCONUS for both real world and training. I have no issues giving you advice on gear that fits your needs whether or not we sell it. The way this thread is going, I find that, while fun for me, a flame war would begin and is not worhtwhile.

Best of luck,

SOS

[JCast265]

I really liked the OP Tactical Mayflower APC they were selling that used the First Spear tubes for the cumberbund, all the things that are nice about the APC but able to don't/doff without ripping Velcro.

You can still do the mod yourself and one day I might get around to it, was just neat it came that way already.