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Thread: AR endurance findings, at a rental range, sometimes in excess of 200,000 rounds

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmo223 View Post
    On the other hand, since it's an indoor range, with lot's of inexperienced shooters and people shooting full auto, his criteria for accuracy is going to be a lot more forgiving than mine. I shoot a lot at 100-250 yards, with lots of sitting and prone shooting. I want my guns to be capable of at least 2-3 MOA with XM193 or its equivalent. So I suspect I'm going to be replacing my barrels long before the bullets start keyholing.
    He was pretty upfront about that - accuracy requirement hit the red center of their target at 10 or 15 yards.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    He mentioned that ftf and FTE are something they avoid, because otherwise it screws up the experience for the customer. They give the customer another gun and Mag if it has more than a certain number of malfunctions, (3?) no matter the number of rounds left. That gets expensive after a while.

    Overall, I think it's some good data.
    If a weapon jams once, there's a good chance it was user-related but a second jam means the customer gets a new weapon and they start all over with a fresh magazine, even if they got 24 out of 25 rounds down range. Most of the customers won't take the additional magazine because they feel guilty but it's worth the cost of the ammo to make sure leave with a huge grin and satisfied.

    I went to ARFcom and read the whole thing, in fact I copied his comments to make a short handout for the guys I work with.

  3. #33
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    Ah, thanks for quoting it. Didn't want to go find it myself.

    As such, I would assume problematic guns get repaired, or replaced.

  4. #34
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    I think I read on TOS him saying a range officer loaded and handed them the gun, let them shoot it empty, then took it right back, so of course they wouldn't have any of the rough handling, dropped mags, outdoor conditions, etc., that a duty-type weapon would see.

    It's interesting reading but the firing schedule, round counts, and maintenance likely don't match many real-world guns.

  5. #35
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    I wouldn't have thought to ask those guys, but they obviously know what they're talking about. It was very reassuring to hear that upper receivers don't wear out, as I just gave Vltor 7 big ones for their new keymod mono upper. Good to know it will be around for a long time.

    The above post does touch on something I thought too, that their choice of lube and maintenance schedule might not work as well for the real world, depending on what the real world is in any given case. For example it might work for police, but may not work for military in the desert. I was also a little surprised that they didn't use TW25B. As far as cleanliness goes, I've always found it to be 100% mess free, but it is pretty pricy and probably not necessary for their purposes. But the info on part longevity is priceless, although they do take the guns far past what would be allowed in any armory, but that's part of what makes the information so useful. Not even the military pushes their guns anywhere close to those round counts without doing a serious overhaul in between. Definitely a very unique perspective that shows what those guns are capable of if taken to their extremes.
    Last edited by HansTheHobbit; 09-17-15 at 22:59.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    He apparently runs several short barreled PSA uppers, bought at the same time. Apparently he had one short stroking early on, but they fixed it, gas key loose if I recall correctly. And they had a bolt break at the Cam pin after approximately 20-30k rounds. He seems to feel they are on par with lmt and the like as far as parts longevity. At least, that's what I gather.
    In engineering terms, supportability is typically worth more than reliability if you're running stuff to failure anyway. They could probably afford a pool of spares and be able to lean on PSA service to keep their stuff up and running at the same cost they'd be at bare minimum with other stuff, so those were far and away the best value for them. Also keep in mind that they aren't they ones paying for the ammo to test and see if it's running - they're just dealing with the opportunity cost of getting good tips if it doesn't.
    عندما تصبح الأسلحة محظورة, قد يملكون حظرون عندهم فقط
    کله چی سلاح منع شوی دی، یوازي غلوونکۍ یی به درلود
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehLlama View Post
    In engineering terms, supportability is typically worth more than reliability if you're running stuff to failure anyway. They could probably afford a pool of spares and be able to lean on PSA service to keep their stuff up and running at the same cost they'd be at bare minimum with other stuff, so those were far and away the best value for them. Also keep in mind that they aren't they ones paying for the ammo to test and see if it's running - they're just dealing with the opportunity cost of getting good tips if it doesn't.
    Interesting thought, however, they are also using colts, lmts, and DD rifles. They have stated that the PSA stuff has lasted on par with the other brands. I imagine replacement cost for entire rifles is dwarfed by ammunition costs.

    If I'm misunderstanding your post, sorry, I'm abbreviated....

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    Interesting thought, however, they are also using colts, lmts, and DD rifles. They have stated that the PSA stuff has lasted on par with the other brands. I imagine replacement cost for entire rifles is dwarfed by ammunition costs.

    If I'm misunderstanding your post, sorry, I'm abbreviated....

    I would be willing to believe that PSA lasted as long as DD and Colt under the circumstances they're describing. But...

    I would also be willing to bet that the DD and Colt will hold their groups longer, were more accurate to begin with, and most likely have better reliability due to better QC. The thing is, when you're shooting a gun until it keyholes, just about all barrels are going to hold up about as long as the next one. The true measure of barrel life is how many rounds it will fire before the groups start to open up, and that's where quality comes into play. If accuracy of any kind was a factor for them, then I doubt they would be using PSAs.

    Also, they're using these guns under ideal circumstances. If the tolerances are a little off, then it's not going to effect anything. On the battlefield, however, poor quality control could lead to less than ideal accuracy or, on the other end, malfunctions when it got dirty.

  9. #39
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    I've already addressed the accuracy issue. This testing is valid for parts breakage in my opinion, not accuracy. Their accuracy standards are much different than most.

    In any case, I don't consider constant full auto Mag dumps ideal conditions, not dirty/dusty but I won't argue here.

    By the way, what kind of groups do you expect to shoot while running from building to building and put a few rounds through a window running full sprint? Cause I expect minute of make the shooter duck. Just saying.
    Last edited by thx997303; 09-18-15 at 00:45.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    I would also be willing to bet that the DD and Colt will hold their groups longer, were more accurate to begin with, and most likely have better reliability due to better QC.
    No comment on reliability, but my understanding is PSA uses FN barrels for their normal (not PTAC line), so barrel quality would probably run on par with the best for a chrome lined AR barrel.

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