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Thread: AR endurance findings, at a rental range, sometimes in excess of 200,000 rounds

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honorthecall81 View Post
    I think it's funny that he refuses to say how or if the
    PWS piston system ran. He won't even comment if
    they have used it. He says he doesn't want to comment
    on failures of manufacturers because he doesn't want
    people to take it wrong, when all throughout the thread
    he sites specific names and how they perform. But will
    not touch PWS with a 10 ft pole. Intrigues me as to why?
    He won't name pistons that failed because he/they didn't follow the manufacturer instructions on maintenance. Calling out a system that doesn't work when you use it incorrectly provides very little useful information and needlessly hurts the companies.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  2. #22
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    2007 called, and wants its piston ARs back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    He won't name pistons that failed because he/they didn't follow the manufacturer instructions on maintenance. Calling out a system that doesn't work when you use it incorrectly provides very little useful information and needlessly hurts the companies.
    This.

    Dude said, straight up, he isn't going to shit on anyone.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honorthecall81 View Post
    I think it's funny that he refuses to say how or if the
    PWS piston system ran. He won't even comment if
    they have used it. He says he doesn't want to comment
    on failures of manufacturers because he doesn't want
    people to take it wrong, when all throughout the thread
    he sites specific names and how they perform. But will
    not touch PWS with a 10 ft pole. Intrigues me as to why?
    I'm a PWS fanboy as well, so I feel your pain. As I stated earlier though, the operating conditions (full auto all the time) and failure criteria (broken or inoperable parts; key holing at 10y) do not resemble real world conditions so I take the results with a large grain of salt (because fanboy?). It does not seem like FTF and FTEs are tracked very closely based on what I've read but I think that everyone would agree that those play a large role in assessing a weapon's reliability and durability. I frankly put more trust in real world endurance tests like DMack, Todd G, and even Lucky Grunner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Glockster View Post
    Granted, but you want the mags that last the longest.
    I thought that USGI mags were more prone to bent and damaged feed lips when they hit the deck during reloads. I'm guessing that reloads are a lot more gentle at BLV and possibly even performed by RSOs.
    Last edited by GiddyHitch; 09-17-15 at 00:42.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    He won't name pistons that failed because he/they didn't follow the manufacturer instructions on maintenance. Calling out a system that doesn't work when you use it incorrectly provides very little useful information and needlessly hurts the companies.
    Yup. Could also be something as simple as availability of spares and replacement parts. I can think of a few places just off the top of my head that stock LMT and DD BCG's, but running any kind of proprietary setup means there's probably some unavoidable bottlenecks in supply chain possible.


    I'd put a lot of other real-world tests ahead of this, but again it's another data point, that further reinforces the trend that: properly lubricated AR's will run, for a long time, with any reasonable maintenance/cleaning regiment. Replacing a BCG (and using the probably good one as a spare) between 5000-10,000 rounds still sounds quite reasonable, fresh buffer springs around the same time also sounds fairly reasonable. Magazines that don't work good instantly become trash/training mags, and I am really amused that he went out of his way to state that every lube performed as advertised (quite germane to the Fireclean ~ Canola Oil firestorm right now). Really puts a now somewhat old Pat Rogers quote about 'Eye of Newt, CLP, Vagisil - use whatever you want, just use something as a lubricant' being really quite true.
    عندما تصبح الأسلحة محظورة, قد يملكون حظرون عندهم فقط
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  5. #25
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    My overall takeaway is it shows how much of the consumer market place really is hype and marketing.....based on his data, a good DI system with a milspec barrel and quality bolt and mag last the longest under these circumstances.
    Owner/CEO
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  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=GiddyHitch;2179863]I'm a PWS fanboy as well, so I feel your pain. As I stated earlier though, the operating conditions (full auto all the time) and failure criteria (broken or inoperable parts; key holing at 10y) do not resemble real world conditions so I take the results with a large grain of salt (because fanboy?). It does not seem like FTF and FTEs are tracked very closely based on what I've read but I think that everyone would agree that those play a large role in assessing a weapon's reliability and durability. I frankly put more trust in real world endurance tests like DMack, Todd G, and even Lucky Grunner.

    Yeah the thing is that I don't even know if they have used PWS
    products. He won't say. Yes I'm a fan of PWS but I'm not
    gonna lose sleep about it. There are just so many variables
    that go into these situations. Dmack's test as well as running
    my PWS more than instills every bit of confidence in the
    system. Even if they had a PWS rifle on their range, and even
    say it failed in some way, you have to know how or why.
    What were the circumstances? If it was just one rifle you have
    to remember that it's just one rifle. EVERY single manufacturer
    has had a rifle or component in thier system fail. Not one
    is exempt from this. So does this mean we stop using them
    all together? People just need to keep in perspective that there
    are so many variables that go into these things.
    Last edited by Honorthecall81; 09-17-15 at 11:13.
    Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.
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  7. #27
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    Yet another PWS fan, although I also have a POF and a BCM that I've been happy with. I agree that more info. is always a good thing and it's nice to hear that his AR's generally hold up so well. However, I'm not sure his criteria for a reliable firearm and mine are the same. On the one hand I put my guns through a lot less abuse - never shooting full auto or suppressed. Also, even though I shoot pretty frequently, owning multiple AR's ( plus a bunch of other guns) means that it will be years before I approach putting 10,000 rounds through a rifle.

    On the other hand, since it's an indoor range, with lot's of inexperienced shooters and people shooting full auto, his criteria for accuracy is going to be a lot more forgiving than mine. I shoot a lot at 100-250 yards, with lots of sitting and prone shooting. I want my guns to be capable of at least 2-3 MOA with XM193 or its equivalent. So I suspect I'm going to be replacing my barrels long before the bullets start keyholing.

  8. #28
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    He apparently runs several short barreled PSA uppers, bought at the same time. Apparently he had one short stroking early on, but they fixed it, gas key loose if I recall correctly. And they had a bolt break at the Cam pin after approximately 20-30k rounds. He seems to feel they are on par with lmt and the like as far as parts longevity. At least, that's what I gather.

    I don't think most of his data about barrel life is good for much, but parts breakage interests me quite a bit.

    He mentioned that ftf and FTE are something they avoid, because otherwise it screws up the experience for the customer. They give the customer another gun and Mag if it has more than a certain number of malfunctions, (3?) no matter the number of rounds left. That gets expensive after a while.

    Overall, I think it's some good data.

  9. #29
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    While his logs are not the most detailed from a rounds fired, tracking mag failures, and the like standpoint, I think that their repair records give a lot of insight into the various systems they run. Full auto and suppressed may skew the results a bit, but that grain of salt is easier to take than what most other people's data sets generate. The fact that the owner seems to be a good guy is a plus as well.


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  10. #30
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    Skewed for sure, but wouldn't constant full auto use and suppressed be generally harsher on the components? I would think so. In that case, it would be skewed to suggest the parts would have a shorter service life than a normal user might see.

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