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Thread: AR endurance findings, at a rental range, sometimes in excess of 200,000 rounds

  1. #41
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    At least on their premium line. Their freedom line may use Wilson arms? No idea on the ptac.

    In any case, seems in their usage, PSA stands up to scrutiny. Moving on.
    Last edited by thx997303; 09-18-15 at 15:51.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    At least on their premium line. Their freedom line may use Wilson arms? No idea on the ptac.

    In any case, seems in their usage, PSA stands up to scrutiny. Moving on.
    Didn't one of the PSA's fail in like 7 days?

  3. #43
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    Yep, 16 days of use, according to his maintenance logs and armorer notes, broken cam pin. According to him, they conservatively put 250 rounds of full auto fire per day of use. So about 4k rounds.

    Then it broke a gas key after about 15,500 rounds due to short stroking. They also replaced the extractor and gas rings at this point.

    My calculations of course, based on his estimated round count per day, and maintenance schedule cleaning the gun one day a week.

    Keep in mind this is an 11.5" or 10.5" barrelled upper. According to him, those SBR s are hard on gas system components.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    He won't name pistons that failed because he/they didn't follow the manufacturer instructions on maintenance. Calling out a system that doesn't work when you use it incorrectly provides very little useful information and needlessly hurts the companies.
    I wished he named names. Its not like this guy company is being sponsored by him. He has to buy them.
    It would of been nice to know if it was POF, LWRCI. Anderson arms. They make select fire piston AR's.
    Oh well. Maybe he was paid really well by DD LOL jk.
    Anyways in the end I get this is a lot of stress on the rifles but it would be nice to know how all these rifles holds up to this type of abuse.
    It would be a good ego booster thats for sure.

    2 by 2...hands of blue
    #ifyourhandtouchesmetal,I swearbymyprettyfloralbonnet,I willendyou

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehLlama View Post
    Yup. Could also be something as simple as availability of spares and replacement parts. I can think of a few places just off the top of my head that stock LMT and DD BCG's, but running any kind of proprietary setup means there's probably some unavoidable bottlenecks in supply chain possible.


    I'd put a lot of other real-world tests ahead of this, but again it's another data point, that further reinforces the trend that: properly lubricated AR's will run, for a long time, with any reasonable maintenance/cleaning regiment. Replacing a BCG (and using the probably good one as a spare) between 5000-10,000 rounds still sounds quite reasonable, fresh buffer springs around the same time also sounds fairly reasonable. Magazines that don't work good instantly become trash/training mags, and I am really amused that he went out of his way to state that every lube performed as advertised (quite germane to the Fireclean ~ Canola Oil firestorm right now). Really puts a now somewhat old Pat Rogers quote about 'Eye of Newt, CLP, Vagisil - use whatever you want, just use something as a lubricant' being really quite true.
    vagisil omg. But it could work.

    2 by 2...hands of blue
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfreakarms View Post
    vagisil omg. But it could work.

    2 by 2...hands of blue
    .

    I thought it was proven a few years ago.

    .

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfreakarms View Post
    I wished he named names. Its not like this guy company is being sponsored by him. He has to buy them.
    It would of been nice to know if it was POF, LWRCI. Anderson arms. They make select fire piston AR's.
    Oh well. Maybe he was paid really well by DD LOL jk.
    Anyways in the end I get this is a lot of stress on the rifles but it would be nice to know how all these rifles holds up to this type of abuse.
    It would be a good ego booster thats for sure.

    2 by 2...hands of blue
    I was really disappointed as well that he didn't go into detail. I would really like to know why they don't use POF, as POF makes some extremely lofty claims about their longevity, which have been backed up by an independent source or two, though I cannot speak to their impartiality. Also curious what problems they had with LWRC. I've never heard anything but glorious reviews regarding either one. Now I hate piston ARs with a passion, but I'm extremely curious what makes one piston AR better than the next, so I'd be on the edge of my seat to hear what they had to say.

    I also don't think that deviating from the manufacturer's individual instructions necessarily lets them off the hook, so long as the end user was treating it with a reasonable level of what's traditionally accepted as proper care and feeding, i.e. not using it to drive nails. I have found that products with exacting requirements usually are simply bad products hiding behind intentionally complicated usage guidelines that tend to implicate the end user whenever something goes wrong.

    User: "My gun spontaneously dematerialized."

    Customer Service: "Well, did you lube it with Atlantian unicorn tears every twenty rounds???"

    User: "No."

    Customer Service: "Ah, well that's your problem. Sorry, you voided the warranty."

    Judging from what he said about their maintenance schedules, I don't see any reason whatsoever that they shouldn't be able to use just about any AR on the market with reasonable success. They keep lube on the guns and clean them every now and again, not to mention use decent ammo, so I just don't see the problem. Let's put it this way. A company like BCM, DD, or Spike's isn't going to quibble over meaningless details. If sh!t breaks before it's supposed to, then sh!t gets replaced.

    Long story short, if a piston AR doesn't give them halfway decent performance, then it's probably the gun's fault. These are people who get good results from PSA for crying out loud! Okay, rant off.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    I was really disappointed as well that he didn't go into detail. I would really like to know why they don't use POF, as POF makes some extremely lofty claims about their longevity, which have been backed up by an independent source or two, though I cannot speak to their impartiality. Also curious what problems they had with LWRC. I've never heard anything but glorious reviews regarding either one. Now I hate piston ARs with a passion, but I'm extremely curious what makes one piston AR better than the next, so I'd be on the edge of my seat to hear what they had to say.

    I also don't think that deviating from the manufacturer's individual instructions necessarily lets them off the hook, so long as the end user was treating it with a reasonable level of what's traditionally accepted as proper care and feeding, i.e. not using it to drive nails. I have found that products with exacting requirements usually are simply bad products hiding behind intentionally complicated usage guidelines that tend to implicate the end user whenever something goes wrong.

    User: "My gun spontaneously dematerialized."

    Customer Service: "Well, did you lube it with Atlantian unicorn tears every twenty rounds???"

    User: "No."

    Customer Service: "Ah, well that's your problem. Sorry, you voided the warranty."

    Judging from what he said about their maintenance schedules, I don't see any reason whatsoever that they shouldn't be able to use just about any AR on the market with reasonable success. They keep lube on the guns and clean them every now and again, not to mention use decent ammo, so I just don't see the problem. Let's put it this way. A company like BCM, DD, or Spike's isn't going to quibble over meaningless details. If sh!t breaks before it's supposed to, then sh!t gets replaced.

    Long story short, if a piston AR doesn't give them halfway decent performance, then it's probably the gun's fault. These are people who get good results from PSA for crying out loud! Okay, rant off.
    I like piston AR's. POF was my first AR, now I got a tavor.
    But I agree with u, LWRCI , and POF make a lot of claims. I mean if you read what material they use for their barrels and what not, on paper it seems like high quality stuff.
    On Facebook POF has one of the police departments in socal out using an testing their rifles. Over the course of 2 yrs they have about 67k RDS through their 308 if I'm not mistaken. Of course they had to replace I assume the usual parts. As for the barrel and the lower parts are still original.
    But I would like to know the durability. A place like battlefield Vegas is a good place to test out rifles.
    If I owned a rifle company I would volunteer my rifle to prove how durable it is.

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  9. #49
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  10. #50
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    Hi,

    This is Ron from Battlefield Vegas and one of the members of this forum asked that I chime in on this thread. I will start out by saying the reason I won't name names is two-fold. I don't think those companies ever imagined somebody running their products like we do and SOME companies are a bit more litigious than others. That being said, you can infer what you want when I say we've had MANY piston systems on our range and the only one to last is the HK 416 design. We are currently using the TD-415 knock-off uppers at only a fraction of the price of a real HK but the profile looks the same and that's what customers want. They want to shoot the same HK 416 that they use in Call of Duty, Modern Warfare and Battlefield.

    I wish I had better data for accuracy but my concern is that the customer be able to shoot as close to the center of the target as possible. The funniest thing I ever heard from a customer is when he walked out with his target and I saw the rounds that keyholed, he was saying something to the affect of "that's what M-16's do.. the bullets tumble". I couldn't stop laughing all the way back to my office.

    As for lubes, we've used them all and they ALL work as long as the weapon stays wet. We never found the magical gun lube that caused the clouds to part with Jesus' own hand laying it on the armorer's bench. I've watched the whole issue with FireClean and even though we used it at one point, we couldn't afford it. My armorers said that it did seem to perform better than some of the other stuff we used, the amount that we needed to keep the weapons running properly was more than I could afford at the time. We went back to Slip2000 after the FireClean and just recently switched over to Lucas. It doesn't "spray" as much after being applied and that keeps our customers cleaner.

    None of the dealers give us any better pricing that we would normally get and that includes Daniel Defense, Colt, LMT or even the PSA "premium" or whatever it's called line of uppers. I don't ask for free products because I'm not in debt to anybody. I'm not going to lie and say how great a product is just to return the favor.

    I will try and answer questions the best I can between here the other forum the best I can and when time allows.

    V/R
    Ron

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