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Thread: Stoner AR Operating System Technical Detail

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by azoutdoorsman View Post
    Your statement contradicts itself. Pressure is a force imparted by gas, fluid, or mass.

    pressure
    [presh-er]
    Spell Syllables
    Examples Word Origin
    noun
    1.
    the exertion of force upon a surface by an object, fluid, etc., in contact with it:
    the pressure of earth against a wall.
    2.
    Physics. force per unit area. Symbol: P.
    Compare stress (def 6).
    The bolt in the Ljungman does not contain any pressure on its tail end in order to drive the carrier. It certainly contains pressure from the case in the chamber, but the routing of gas in the gas system is separate from the bolt.

    In the Stoner Internal Gas Expansion system, the bolt plays a critical role in containing residual pressure in order to drive the carrier, which is why it is a stationary piston, as described in the patent.

    I don't know what this infatuation with eliminating the word "piston" from the Stoner system is based upon, but it is simply incorrect, is intentionally ignorant of the patent, and the way the gun actually works.

    Maybe this failed argument is the result of a previous flawed argument, but it is flawed nonetheless.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRRPF52 View Post
    The bolt in the Ljungman does not contain any pressure on its tail end in order to drive the carrier. It certainly contains pressure from the case in the chamber, but the routing of gas in the gas system is separate from the bolt.

    In the Stoner Internal Gas Expansion system, the bolt plays a critical role in containing residual pressure in order to drive the carrier, which is why it is a stationary piston, as described in the patent.

    I don't know what this infatuation with eliminating the word "piston" from the Stoner system is based upon, but it is simply incorrect, is intentionally ignorant of the patent, and the way the gun actually works.

    Maybe this failed argument is the result of a previous flawed argument, but it is flawed nonetheless.
    The routing of the gas is determined by what contains the gas. In both systems. They are analogous. The gas is contained in the barrel until it passes the gas port. The gas is then re-directed through the gas port and back towards the bolt carrier assembly. The Stoner system is just more refined and sophisticated.

    I don't understand the infatuation with eliminating direct impingement from the accepted nomenclature. I think we all understand how the gun works, and indirect insults don't advance the discussion.

    Does anyone have reference to where the use of DI first originated when describing Stoner's system?
    Last edited by azoutdoorsman; 10-22-15 at 13:41.

  3. #63
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    Di the gas itself forces the action open.
    In an ar, the gas fills the space in the bcg activating the piston. Di is a tube and moving part, pistons have 2 parts sealed, and a fluid forces them apart.

  4. #64
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    Technically, a Ljungman/MAS gas system is also a 'piston' system.

    The gas tube in these does go into the bolt carrier a short distance and thus becomes a piston with the bolt carrier that surrounds the tube stub being the cylinder. Granted, it is a very short piston.





    Last edited by lysander; 10-22-15 at 13:53.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    Again, the definition of a piston is something that's acted upon by fluid pressure. By necessity it's a moving part. Furthermore, it then actuates other moving parts. The bolt in an AR isn't acted upon by the gas (the carrier is), and it doesn't actuate anything (it is itself actuated by the carrier). All the bolt tail does is serve as a gas plug. If you want to call anything in an AR a piston, then it has to be the carrier. It works identically to a female piston at the end of an op rod.
    PISTONS
    A piston does not have to move to be a piston. It can be stationary in relationship to the machinery it's attached to. Some aircraft use hydraulics where it's the cylinder that imparts motion to the control surface, landing gear, doors etc., while it's the piston that's affixed to the airframe or accessory.

    I don't post this to explain things to you, Hans, as you've proven you will continue to interpret the facts as you will and will continue to argue against what knowledgeable, trained and experienced people have to say. I post this for others who slog their way through this thread.

    SEMANTICS
    Technicians know it's not semantics, it's proper nomenclature to correctly identify the problem so job can get done properly and safely. It's not semantics when 400 lives are riding through a cold, harsh environment at 30,000 feet traveling at 600 knots. It's not semantics when a fighter is popping chaff and flare as it dives it's way to deliver ordinance on an enemy position that has our troops pinned down and cutting them to pieces. It's not sementics when the FAA is combing through the maintenance books and looking at your practices when a pilot balls up an aircraft you just worked on, out in some remote location.

    Let's bring it home- Warfighter brings in AR and says "It's double feeding." Armorer hands Warfighter a new mag. "This'll fix it." Warfighter goes out and gets in a fight and the same malfunction occurs. Warfighter clears malfunction while under fire, cursing the armorer the whole time.

    When the Warfighter gets back, he tears into the Armorer. "You said a new mag would fix the double feed problem!" Armorer says "It does. Were two live rounds in the chamber?"

    "No! It was a double feed! An empty and a live round were jammed in there, just like all the other times."

    "Ah," says the Armorer. "That's not a double feed. That's something different."

    "Semantics! Two rounds were stuck in there!"

    Well, guess what? In this case, "semantics" almost got your ass shot off. Dismissing the proper use of words as "semantics" muddies communications. If we're lucky, it merely wastes time and money. If we're not, it can lead to fines and imprisonment and loss of life and expensive equipment

    DEFINING DIRECT IMPINGEMENT
    I have not found enough information to use to clearly define "Direct Impingment", so I have not attempted to do so. I have not yet had the time to study the DI system to attempt to define it on my own, as I have with the AR system. So I will leave you with this-

    The DI System is like pornography. I cannot clearly define it, but I know it when I see it

    Basically, all DI system have a cup or pin that is external to the carrier that the gas tube directs gas pressure to in order to activate the carrier with a push. If the cup/pin is considered the piston and the gas tube the cylinder, a feature common to all DI systems is that when the carrier begins movement, the piston separates from the cylinder.

    In the AR, the gas tube is not a cylinder and the piston is internal meaning it remains with the cylinder and the piston & cylinder. The gas tube is actually a capillary tube that controls flow from a high pressure vessel to a low pressure vessel. That means the gas flowing from the gas tube drops in pressure as it enters the expansion chamber
    Last edited by MistWolf; 10-22-15 at 15:18.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

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  6. #66
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    Here is a Rossignol ENT rifle. The "gas adductor" could easily be considered a piston. However, the rifle itself is known as one of the first Direct Impingement rifles.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    PISTONS
    A piston does not have to move to be a piston. It can be stationary in relationship to the machinery it's attached to. Some aircraft use hydraulics where it's the cylinder portion that moves causing the control surface, landing gear, doors etc. to move, while the piston part is affixed to the airframe or accessory

    I don't post this to explain things to you, Hans as you've proven you will continue to interpret the facts as you will and will continue to argue against what knowledgeable, trained and experienced people have to say. I post this for others who slog their way through this post.

    SEMANTICS
    Technicians know it's not semantics, it's proper nomenclature to correctly identify the problem so job can get done properly and safely. It's not semantics when 400 lives are riding through a cold, harsh environment at 30,000 feet traveling at 600 knots. It's not semantics when a fighter is popping chaff and flare as it dives it's way to deliver ordinance on an enemy position that has our troops pinned down and cutting them to pieces. It's not sementics when the FAA is combing through the maintenance books and looking at your practices when a pilot balls up an aircraft you just worked on, out in some remote location.

    Let's bring it home- Warfighter brings in AR and says "It's double feeding." Armorer hands Warfighter a new mag. "This'll fix it." Warfighter goes out and gets in a fight and the same malfunction occurs. Warfighter clears malfunction while under fire, cursing the armorer the whole time.

    When the Warfighter gets back, he tears into the Armorer. "You said a new mag would fix the double feed problem!" Armorer says "It does. Were two live rounds in the chamber?"

    "No! It was a double feed! An empty and a live round were jammed in there, just like all the other times."

    "Ah," says the Armorer. "That's not a double feed. That's something different."

    "Semantics! Two rounds were stuck in there!"

    Well, guess what? In this case, "semantics" almost got your ass shot off. Dismissing the proper use of words as "semantics" muddies communications. If we're lucky, it merely wastes time and money. If we're not, it can lead to fines and imprisonment and loss of life and expensive equipment

    DEFINING DIRECT IMPINGEMENT
    I have not found enough information to use to clearly define "Direct Impingment", so I have not attempted to do so. I have not yet had the time to study the DI system to attempt to define it on my own, as I have with the AR system. So I will leave you with this-

    The DI System is like pornography. I cannot clearly define it, but I know it when I see it

    Basically, all DI system have a cup or pin that is external to the carrier that the gas tube directs gas pressure to in order to activate the carrier with a push. If the cup/pin is considered the piston and the gas tube the cylinder, a feature common to all DI systems is that when the carrier begins movement, the piston separates from the cylinder.

    In the AR, the gas tube is not a cylinder and the piston is internal meaning it remains with the cylinder and the piston & cylinder. The gas tube is actually a capillary tube that controls flow from a high pressure vessel to a low pressure vessel. That means the gas flowing from the gas tube drops in pressure as it enters the expansion chamber
    For someone who wants to be a stickler about nomenclature, you sure go about it strangely.

    "cylinder
    [sil-in-der]
    Spell Syllables
    Examples Word Origin
    noun
    1.
    Geometry. a surface or solid bounded by two parallel planes and generated by a straight line moving parallel to the given planes and tracing a curve bounded by the planes and lying in a plane perpendicular or oblique to the given planes.
    2.
    any cylinderlike object or part, whether solid or hollow.
    3.
    the rotating part of a revolver, containing the chambers for the cartridges.
    4.
    (in a pump) a cylindrical chamber in which a piston slides to move or compress a fluid.
    5.
    (in an engine) a cylindrical chamber in which the pressure of a gas or liquid moves a sliding piston."

    "tube
    noun \ˈtüb, ˈtyüb\
    : a long, hollow object that is used especially to control the flow of a liquid or gas

    : an object shaped like a pipe

    : a soft, long, narrow container that has a small opening at one end and that contains a soft material which can be pushed out by squeezing
    Full Definition of TUBE

    1
    : any of various usually cylindrical structures or devices: as
    a : a hollow elongated cylinder; especially : one to convey fluids"

    Story number 2:

    Warfighter comes in from battle and says to his armorer "The god damn piston in my M4 is broken! Fix it so I can get back out there and help my fellow soldiers!"

    Armorer has a chuckle as he looks down at the M4 the warfighter slammed down onto the bench, because maybe the warfighter thought he was using an HK 416, but was actually using an M4. The 416 is the only small arm in their armory with a piston system. Maybe the warfighter mixed his personal HK 416 up with someone else's M4 in the chaos of battle?

    Just to make sure, the armorer looks up all the part numbers and descriptions of the M4 in front of him. Sure enough, not a single part listed as a piston. The armorer disassembles the M4 and finds that in fact, the bolt is broken. Being a good armorer, he fixes the real problem, instead of what the warfighter claimed was the problem.

    Poor armorer didn't have hours of his day to spend on gun forums and learn all the new nomenclature being put forth by .05% of the shooting community.

    Your definition of DI also perfectly describes the action of the AR15 bolt and carrier interaction, e.g., when the carrier begins to move rearward, the bolt remains stationary and the carrier begins to separate from the piston (bolt in your example).
    Last edited by azoutdoorsman; 10-22-15 at 14:16.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    PISTONS
    DEFINING DIRECT IMPINGEMENT
    I have not found enough information to use to clearly define "Direct Impingment", so I have not attempted to do so. I have not yet had the time to study the DI system to attempt to define it on my own, as I have with the AR system. So I will leave you with this-

    The DI System is like pornography. I cannot clearly define it, but I know it when I see it
    I will define it for you.

    Direct impingement is when a gas flow alone, without the aid of being confined to maintain pressure is used to move an object.

    If you blow on a fan and it turns, that is direct impingement.

    Like I stated above the MAS and the Ljungman are actually piston systems, in the case of the MAS, the piston is almost as long as an AR-180's piston.

    It is just that they, like Stoner's design, have a long gas tube between the gas port in the barrel and the actual piston.
    Last edited by lysander; 10-22-15 at 14:15. Reason: spellign...

  10. #70
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    I've been watching this back and forth, and my comment is purely theoretical and not practical....but my main thought would be that if it were solely the carrier being impinged by the gas, it would cause the carrier to cycle even if the bolt is removed. I don't think that would be the case, would it? Conversely, on an op rod gun, the carrier WOULD move with the bolt removed?

    Not a scientist or an SME, so I'm truly curious if this is correct?


    Sent from my iPhone

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