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Thread: Stoner AR Operating System Technical Detail

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    Attachment 35571
    Attachment 35572

    I'm sure everyone sees my point, even if they're not willing to admit it...

    If you call the bolt in an AR a piston, then you would have to call the adam's arms gas block a piston. As it relates to our discussion, the bolt in the AR serves no more of a purpose than the gas plug in the adam's arms gas block. In terms of unlocking itself, all it does is seal the carrier pocket. Put a few gas rings on the adam's arms gas block, and it's the EXACT same mechanical scenario.
    Uhhh...

    The plug thingy in an Adams Arms Piston system is the piston, it is just also a plug that blocks that big hole in the gas block....

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    Which is my point... the term blowback is used for non-locked breech pistols. Yet the blowback force is identical on the other designs like short stroke recoil operation. So it's not accurate in that regard. Would be better to just call it inertia breech vs locked breech or something.

    One a different note: is this rifle gas operated with a piston? Or direct impingement?

    Attachment 35573

    Awfully close to the DI examples (Ljungman, Hakim). But usually described as gas operated.

    I do believe it's closer to a stationary piston due to it's tighter tolerances.
    Almost all semi automatic rifles are gas operated, even DI ones.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    And that thing is a piston, it has gas sealing grooves, so it is obvious that the designer intended to use trapped expanding gas to move a cylinder.
    That's what most refer to it as. It's a mini-14 stationary piston on the gas block. And the female side is on the bolt carrier/slide, no op rod. (Or integral op rod)

    As far as I can tell the grooves are to self clean... No rings used.

    Here's another nuance... Impingement depends on the velocity of the gas, where pistons operate more on the increasing volume and should work even at low gas velocities.

    I've not tested, but my bet is an AR bolt would move with application of compressed air to the gas key nose. But a Hakim bolt would not. May have to try with a mini, need a way to block the chamber end to apply pressure.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    So yours is "Any system where gas is piped into the bolt carrier"?

    I'm not redefining impingement in my description, and it's not dependent on historical analogies. I could hand a mechanical engineer the definition and several rifles, and they could accurately apply it to categorize them. As could most physicists.

    So by your definition the Mini-14 is a direct impingement system. (I do think it's probably a hybrid, but leaning toward a piston approach)
    Absolutely not! The Mini 14 is nearly identical to the M14, both of them being gas piston operated. There's an operating rod that actuates the bolt. I guess in some strange way you could say that the op rod is the carrier, since it's all one piece, but that's not going to hold water.

    It's really very simple. You're just way overthinking it. DI means that the gas is routed directly into the carrier with no piston or op rod in between. If it has an op rod, then it's definitely not DI.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    Almost all semi automatic rifles are gas operated, even DI ones.
    Dodged the question, is the pic piston operated or DI?

    Notable exceptions on gas operated:
    - HK roller locked
    - Johnson rifle
    - Browning A5 type recoil operation (yeah, mostly shotguns, but some rifles)
    - several machine guns
    - barretts?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    That's what most refer to it as. It's a mini-14 stationary piston on the gas block. And the female side is on the bolt carrier/slide, no op rod. (Or integral op rod)

    As far as I can tell the grooves are to self clean... No rings used.

    Here's another nuance... Impingement depends on the velocity of the gas, where pistons operate more on the increasing volume and should work even at low gas velocities.

    I've not tested, but my bet is an AR bolt would move with application of compressed air to the gas key nose. But a Hakim bolt would not. May have to try with a mini, need a way to block the chamber end to apply pressure.
    Like I said, I have no problem with the term stationary piston as long as its applied across the board. If you call the M14 a stationary piston, then you have to call the adam's arms gas block a stationary piston. Personally, I don't think it matters if the piston is male or female, it's still a piston. The gas acts upon it, and it uses that energy to actuate the bolt in one way or another.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    Dodged the question, is the pic piston operated or DI?

    Notable exceptions on gas operated:
    - HK roller locked
    - Johnson rifle
    - Browning A5 type recoil operation (yeah, mostly shotguns, but some rifles)
    - several machine guns
    - barretts?
    It's DI from what I can tell. Looks like it works just like the Ljungman. What is it?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    It's DI from what I can tell. Looks like it works just like the Ljungman. What is it?
    Mini-14 gas block/ stationary piston. The cup/cylinder is the end of the carrier extension

    We all talk about the mini like its derived from the garand/M14 and even M1 carbine. But they are all moving piston designs

  9. #129
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    Wow this thread title is misleading.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    Wow this thread title is misleading.
    If you have a better title, let me know and if I like it, I'll change it.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

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