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Thread: Stoner AR Operating System Technical Detail

  1. #131
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    I have my own opinion on this whole "DI" versus "piston" subject, but I won't get into it at this time. However, one thing I will say is that everyone who mentions Eugene Stoner's patent as some sort of authority on the use of the term "piston" in the context of an AR style rifle is wrong.

    It is very well known in patent law that the person applying for the patent application can use and redefine words however they want in their patent. Just like some of you are sick of hearing people say something that (you think) is technically wrong, I am sick of people saying something that is legally wrong.

    IV. APPLICANT MAY BE OWN LEXICOGRAPHER

    An [patent] applicant is entitled to be his or her own lexicographer and may rebut the presumption that claim terms are to be given their ordinary and customary meaning by clearly setting forth a definition of the term that is different from its ordinary and customary meaning(s).
    See In re Paulsen, 30 F.3d 1475, 1480, 31 USPQ2d 1671, 1674 (Fed. Cir. 1994)

    http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s2111.html

    So Eugene Stoner could have called his rifle's gas system a jelly doughnut system, and that would have been absolutely fine legally, and it would have been written in his patent. But that doesn't make his rifle's gas system a jelly doughnut system.

    Joe Mamma
    "Reliability above all else"
    NRA Certified Pistol and Rifle Instructor, Life Member
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    Beretta & Sig Sauer Certified Pistol Armorer
    Colt Certified 1911 & AR-15/M16/M4 Law Enforcement Armorer

  2. #132
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    Since it appears you are dead set on time traveling back to 2005, you should have done it a day earlier, on October 21st.

  3. #133
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    Then it's settled, Jelly Donut system it is! I'll take two.

    It seems like the reclassification proponents think that each rifle should have its own classification since the designs differ slightly. Which, would completely negate the purpose of a classification. If each design is different, the specific model can differentiate the difference. But lumping the AR in with piston operated rifles is silly, and using another (subjectively) more appropriate specific term to classify the AR has no real benefit to anyone.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    If you have a better title, let me know and if I like it, I'll change it.
    "The AR Gas System As Defined By BertTheTroll"
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by azoutdoorsman View Post
    The gas does indeed directly collide with the BCG, specifically the gas rings you mention, after it is routed through the carrier key and into the carrier itself. The system is not driven by the bolt carrier assembly, it is driven by the gases that impinge upon the bolt carrier assembly, which then move the carrier rearward, unlocking the bolt from the barrel extension via the can pin.
    No. There is no collision with the carrier, or the ring. It's a chamber meant to expand as the volume of gas routed into it expand.
    Nobody ever got shot climbing over the wall into East Berlin.

    Delivering the most precision possible, at the greatest distance possible, with the highest rate of fire possible.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    Again, the definition of a piston is something that's acted upon by fluid pressure. By necessity it's a moving part. Furthermore, it then actuates other moving parts. The bolt in an AR isn't acted upon by the gas (the carrier is), and it doesn't actuate anything (it is itself actuated by the carrier). All the bolt tail does is serve as a gas plug. If you want to call anything in an AR a piston, then it has to be the carrier. It works identically to a female piston at the end of an op rod.
    The bolt is absolutely acted upon by the gas, the carrier is also acted upon by gas, without the bolt and it's gas rings, the carrier would not move. The gas does not directly force the carrier back, it actually forces the bolt and carrier apart, and since the bolt is locked against the barrel, the carrier is then forced back away from the barrel. The bolt is a moving part relative to the carrier. Does that make the bolt a piston? Maybe... That being said, I will still call it DI gun, because that is what it is commonly known as.

  7. #137
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    Additionally, terms needed to be defined.

    Wikipedia is not a source; it is no more legitimate than our discussion here.
    Nobody ever got shot climbing over the wall into East Berlin.

    Delivering the most precision possible, at the greatest distance possible, with the highest rate of fire possible.

  8. #138
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    It's so simple. Why is it being made so hard?

    Gas impacts carrier, forcing carrier back to cycle using the gas' velocity, it's DI.

    Gas expands against a cylinder and piston, using the thermal expansion of the gas, then it's piston operated.

    The ARs system fits solidly into the second. The AR is indeed a piston system. The second also doesn't care if the piston is essentially static.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    It's so simple. Why is it being made so hard?

    Gas impacts carrier, forcing carrier back to cycle using the gas' velocity, it's DI.

    Gas expands against a cylinder and piston, using the thermal expansion of the gas, then it's piston operated.

    The ARs system fits solidly into the second. The AR is indeed a piston system. The second also doesn't care if the piston is essentially static.
    You lost me there...

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    Dodged the question, is the pic piston operated or DI?

    Notable exceptions on gas operated:
    - HK roller locked
    - Johnson rifle
    - Browning A5 type recoil operation (yeah, mostly shotguns, but some rifles)
    - several machine guns
    - barretts? [yes]
    These days gas operated is by far the most popular system for rifles, as it is relatively insensitive to ammunition changes, there are good number of non-gas operated designs out there.

    Leaving out the plethora of blow-back pistol caliber stuff, some more:
    All .22 LR semi-autos
    Remington Model 8
    Remington 81
    AA-52
    FAMAS
    SIG 510 (aka StG 57)
    Mauser 1905
    Pedersen rifle
    Garand's first rifle
    Kiraly-Cristobal
    Winchester Self-loading Rifle
    Thompson Auto-Rifle
    StG 45
    MG13
    MG15
    MG17
    MG131
    MG 30
    MG34
    MG42
    MG151
    MG3
    M53
    Oerlikon
    M1917
    M1919
    M2 HB
    M3
    Chauchat
    Johnson LMG
    Dror
    Maxim/Vickers
    Madsen
    Sjögren
    Schwarzlose
    Rychiger
    Bommarito
    M230
    M242
    Smith & Wesson Light Rifle
    M61
    L94A1

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