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Thread: Stoner AR Operating System Technical Detail

  1. #111
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    So the bolt tail is the piston and the bolt face is the op rod? Or is the cam pin the op rod since it is what causes the bolt to push outward causing carrier to move backwards?

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    ... If we can use the term blowback we can probably also use the term DI for Ljungman/Hakims...
    Blow-back refers to the locking system (or lack thereof) not the method of initiating movement....

    But that, like you said is a different debate.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree... My definition of a DI system has nothing to do with plumbing, it's all about the impingement:

    A Direct Impingement operating system would be one where the following conditions are present:
    1) The majority of the force used to operate the system was due to the jet of gas in line with the desired operating motion impacting a surface
    2) Any force generated due to expansive or increasing volume of gas is secondary (smaller) than the impingement force
    3) The interface between the gas tube and impingement surface is not capable of sustaining pressure and is essentially an open interface not dependent on rings or small tolerances

    But that's just based on my understanding of the physics of impingement.

    We have many forms of inexact terminology... blowback operation comes to mind. There is a defacto definition of a blowback system, but the naming is inaccurate as it is not residual gas expansion blowback that creates the force... it's the "equal and opposite" force of the gas expansion pushing the bullet which also pushes against the base of the cartridge case and bolt/slide face. But the bolt typically does not move until after the bullet has left the barrel and the system is now open. So although expanding gas created the initial force, it's not a captive expansion of gas like a piston system.

    But that's a different debate. If we can use the term blowback we can probably also use the term DI for Ljungman/Hakims
    So now we're making up our own definitions? Well, crap, then I'm going to redefine a suppressor as a muzzle brake. I'm sure the judge will understand that it's all just a matter of semantics, right? We don't get to just go making up our own definitions. It's like I've already said, this way too freaking philosophical for my taste. The terminology is there, everyone understands it, it's been working perfectly for fifty freaking years. I cannot believe that one self contradicting wikipedia article has caused all this havoc.

    Oh, and the universally accepted definition is one sentence. Your definition would require a whole book and a several courses in physics to understand. Can you imagine the confusion that would ensue?
    Last edited by HansTheHobbit; 10-22-15 at 17:59.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leaveammoforme View Post
    So the bolt tail is the piston and the bolt face is the op rod? Or is the cam pin the op rod since it is what causes the bolt to push outward causing carrier to move backwards?
    You're being silly aren't you?

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by lysander View Post
    Blow-back refers to the locking system (or lack thereof) not the method of initiating movement....

    But that, like you said is a different debate.
    Which is my point... the term blowback is used for non-locked breech pistols. Yet the blowback force is identical on the other designs like short stroke recoil operation. So it's not accurate in that regard. Would be better to just call it inertia breech vs locked breech or something.

    One a different note: is this rifle gas operated with a piston? Or direct impingement?

    1Mvc-002f.jpg

    Awfully close to the DI examples (Ljungman, Hakim). But usually described as gas operated.

    I do believe it's closer to a stationary piston due to it's tighter tolerances.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    So now we're making up our own definitions? Well, crap, then I'm going to redefine a suppressor as a muzzle brake.
    Snip
    Oh, and the universally accepted definition is one sentence.
    So yours is "Any system where gas is piped into the bolt carrier"?

    I'm not redefining impingement in my description, and it's not dependent on historical analogies. I could hand a mechanical engineer the definition and several rifles, and they could accurately apply it to categorize them. As could most physicists.

    So by your definition the Mini-14 is a direct impingement system. (I do think it's probably a hybrid, but leaning toward a piston approach)

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansTheHobbit View Post
    So now we're making up our own definitions? Well, crap, then I'm going to redefine a suppressor as a muzzle brake. I'm sure the judge will understand that it's all just a matter of semantics, right? We don't get to just go making up our own definitions. It's like I've already said, this way too freaking philosophical for my taste. The terminology is there, everyone understands it, it's been working perfectly for fifty freaking years. I cannot believe that one self contradicting wikipedia article has caused all this havoc.

    Oh, and the universally accepted definition is one sentence. Your definition would require a whole book and a several courses in physics to understand. Can you imagine the confusion that would ensue?
    Direct - adv - with no one or nothing in between.

    Impingement - v - to strike or dash especially with a sharp collision.

    Gas - n - an airlike fluid substance which expands freely to fill any space available, irrespective of its quantity.

    System - n - a group of devices or artificial objects or an organization forming a network especially for distributing something or serving a common purpose

    Therefore, 'direct gas impingement system' should mean: " a mechanism that derives work [system] through the action of a gas hitting a surface [impinging] without any other additions [direct]."

    His definition is right on, as #2 and #3 just reiterate the "without any other addition" bit....
    A Direct Impingement operating system would be one where the following conditions are present:
    1) The majority of the force used to operate the system was due to the jet of gas in line with the desired operating motion impacting a surface
    2) Any force generated due to expansive or increasing volume of gas is secondary (smaller) than the impingement force
    3) The interface between the gas tube and impingement surface is not capable of sustaining pressure and is essentially an open interface not dependent on rings or small tolerances

  8. #118
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    Well, there's the rub...

    There are many ways to classify operating systems, within the gas operated group there are the "direct gas action" grouping, in that the gas is directly used to lock or unlock the bolt without any intermediate parts. One of the latest was an H&K pistol that ported gas into the slide and held the slide forward until the gas pressure dropped off and some other means could extract and cycle the action. Another, was a experimental cannon that had a high helix screw-type locking bolt that would unscrew under chamber pressure, but gas was ported to act on one side of the lugs and hold them in the locked position until the gas pressure dropped off and the thing unscrewed itself to unlock.

    And, there are many recoil operated guns that use residual chamber pressure (ie the case as a piston) to actually keep the bolt going rearward....

    And that thing is a piston, it has gas sealing grooves, so it is obvious that the designer intended to use trapped expanding gas to move a cylinder.

  9. #119
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    Guys, stop reporting posts to this thread. It intentionally exists as a place to safely contain the discussion away from other productive threads.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by azoutdoorsman View Post
    Mr. Leuba,

    KAC holds my utmost respect for weapons development and advancement. I consider the SR15 Mod 2 among the finest rifles I have owned and shot with well executed improvements like the E3 bolt, and numerous integrated ambi controls.

    I don't see anywhere on the Knight's website where the SR15 is referred to as a piston driven firearm. I also have never seen any reference to a piston driven firearm on any manufacturer's website where the product uses the traditional gas tube system. I do however find numerous references to DI or direct impingement on manufacturer's websites. In fact, Colt, who holds the TDP for the M16 family of rifles, calls their 6920 AR15 a "Direct Gas System, Locking Bolt", with no mention of a piston:
    http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Rifles/LE6920Series.aspx

    Will KAC begin to now market their rifles as a piston operated system?
    We refer to it as the "Stoner Operating System", which I believe is the best description since it occupies a place between the two.
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

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