500 yard group - how am I doing? update post #46 - 0.5 MOA at 560 yards.

[Nightstalker865]

I will second the suggestion of using a different target with a smaller more refined aiming point.

For what your working with, you are doing an excellent job.

The Chronograph that has been mentioned numerous times would be my second suggestion. Getting that SD between loads as small as possible will take another variable away.


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[rjacobs]

If that barrel is like the other Kriegers I have shot its a 1/2moa or less capable barrel.

Work on that load i.e. get a chrono to see what its doing. At 100 yards crazy ES and SD numbers dont necessarily matter as its easy to get a good group at 100, but have shit numbers. I just went through this with a new gun and 6.5 creedmoor load. Did OCW, thought "damn thats the ticket", ran the load over a chrono and it was shit(20+ SD and I think ~40+ ES). Worked +- .5g in .1g increments around where I thought my node was, shot 5 of each across the chrono and chose the middle of a "flat spot" so to speak. Had 3 loads with single digit SD's, grabbed the middle so I have .1g tolerance on each side. If your numbers are crazy it will show itself at distance. Your load may be a 1/2 moa load at 100 yards, but stretch it out to 500 and you see what an "inconsistent" load it is from an ES and SD stand point.

I also suggest as others to shoot at a target with a defined aiming point so you KNOW you are holding the same spot every time.

[wilson1911]

Magnetospeed is the cats ass when is comes to chrono's, unless you can afford an Oehler.

What method did you use on working up your load ? Ladder or OCW ?

Have you confirmed that you are in a node ? It really looks like you are close to a node. I would recommend adjusting seating depth. How far off the lands are you ? Also, shoot some groups without the can on.
Once you are in a node, your shots will be horizontally strung, not vertical. Then adjusting your seating depth will move them closer together. SMK's usually like -.010-.020 off the lands. I think your shooting is good, your load just needs a small amount of adjustment.

If you are wanting better groups, do an ocw test, then adjust seating depth, then chrono. Turning the necks will also help if you desire to go that far. I would load .2 graduations of powder increments. I load 6 rounds of each. This gives me 2 tests. If I find that I am in a node, I can repeat that powder charge for conformation. Then I load up .1 on either side of what I shot. Lastly, moving the seating depth in .005 at a time. Still load 6 rounds of -20 -15 -10 off lands. I always chrono last, it does not matter what speed they are if you are not in a node.

Nice dial calipers btw.

[Eurodriver]

Thanks for all the great replies.

I will write more later, but I am headed to the range before it gets dark. I'm bringing a few of the same load and loaded up more rounds in tenth of a grain increments around the 43.0 mark. Same brass, same trim length, same primer, etc.

I did notice something that I had not ever considered until now. I am using a $20 electronic scale that is absolutely garbage. It fluctuates all the time, has dead spots, and has very little consistency. I usually weigh my loads twice. I get it "right" in the scale, pour it into the case, and then re-set the scale tare and pour the charge back out of the case and verify. Problems with this scale would definitely contribute to vertical inconsistencies, correct? I need a good scale and I'll look into the magnetospeed. Thanks guys

[wilson1911]

Yes, that's your problem. There are 3 scales that will work. I use a chargemaster, simply because I refuse to do it by hand. I find it to be close enough for my needs. you will not be able to work up any kind of good load without proper weights. My creed shoots 42.2gr of powder. At 42.0 & 42.5 I am completely out of the node.

Sartorius- get this one if your ocd about things/F class/neck turning etc
gempro- has pretty good reviews.
chargemaster- it throws within .1 like it states.


This is what you want to see when doing to ocw test. Guess which one is almost there perfect.



changed eating depth

[taliv]

eurodriver, your group size is decent. but, for that target, what's impressive is the group center, since you probably fired 5 rounds with no feedback (i.e. you couldn't see where you hit and make an adjustment.)

also, measuring yourself vs other shooters is fine, competition is great and all. but measuring yourself against a practical goal is way more important imho. so, if your practical goal is headshots with a 308win, then i'd say you're around the practical limit of the cartridge, and should start focusing on turning marksmanship into a capability. i.e. hitting at unknown distance and in less favorable wind conditions, and moving targets and getting rounds off faster.

overally like you said, you're probably in the middle. i think you've had some good suggestions from posters above about how to tighten it up. without knowing anything about you other than as posted in this thread, I'll throw out some suggestions which may be way off of course

gun setup
1. that stock sucks. it MIGHT be considered ergonomic for slinging lead at deer, but it is not appropriate for precision shooting. it's highly likely your shoulder, spine, head, and trigger finger are sub-optimally positioned. more specifically, you're probably not really able to rest and instead are having to use a lot of muscle. my guess is that if you try the old natural point of aim test (closing your eyes for 20 seconds and then opening them) you'll see some correlation to your group size.
if you have an opportunity to try some other people's stocks at your range, do so. you will probably be amazed at how much easier it will be to shoot well once you get one that's properly adjusted to you.
2. i don't want to get into a big fanboy debate, but my guess is a brake-attached AAC isn't helping you either. I'd definitely do some A-B testing every few hundred rounds to see if the groups change after removing it. (i'm a huge fan of shooting suppressed though)

range
3. what are you shooting from? prone? bench? on concrete? wood? dirt? depending on the answer, you may see better results making some changes.
4. we don't get to choose our practical targets usually. they are what they are. but for shooting groups and learning, that's a pretty poor one. you need something with a super precise aiming point. if you don't have that, sometimes you can improvise. e.g. when i'm shooting a 12" plate or something, instead of just aiming for the 'center', i use the hashes on the reticle and hold them on the edges of the plate, which is much more repeatable and precise sight picture. also since i don't see a bubble level on your rifle, try to find a target something like a diamond that will let you put the tips on your vertical and horizontal crosshairs, which will let you make certain you are keeping the same cant for all shots in the group. don't be afraid to make your own target. e.g. a cardboard ipsc with a 3" black triangle on the extreme top/bottom/left/right drawn in sharpie or with some spraypaint and a template. that will give you a much more consistent hold point.

ammo
5. nothing wrong with what you listed (though if you have some varget or R15 laying around, give that a try instead), but my guess is your vertical spread is partially ammo related, but probably not just velocity. you'll want to invest in a magnetospeed, but also a concentricity or runout gauge, and figure out how to keep consistent neck tension.
i don't suppose you have any way to know, but i'm curious if the low shot was the first round.

[rjacobs]

with no feedback (i.e. you couldn't see where you hit and make an adjustment.)


2. i don't want to get into a big fanboy debate, but my guess is a brake-attached AAC isn't helping you either. I'd definitely do some A-B testing every few hundred rounds to see if the groups change after removing it. (i'm a huge fan of shooting suppressed though)

I will make comments on these two parts.

1. I dont understand the "make corrections" part. What corrections would he make? The answer should be NONE. BUT with no real POA on his target its hard to be consistent. The name of the game is consistency IMO. NOW if he had a grid target with cross hair bull and he was consistently hitting 3" high, yea, dial or hold different because the dope is off, but beyond that, why would he make a "correction" between each shot and what would said correction entail? I dont change SHIT when shooting groups. I dont change my dials, I dont change my position, I dont change my POA, etc... I shoot my group and see whats up and THEN I see if I need to change anything.

2. Ive shot sub 1/2 groups with my SDN6 on a 51t brakeout(half brake half flash hider). It shifts 4" down and 1" left at 100 consistently on my gun. Every time I put it on, it shifts the same. Doesnt shift while shooting, its consistent. People give the 51t AAC cans(and a lot of QD cans in general) a bad rap as far as precision goes, but in my experience with my can(and I have one of the "worst" offenders supposedly) its just not true to the extent people claim. Would I put my can up against a thunderbeast in a precision shoot, nah, probably not, but putting in sub half MOA groups is good enough for me.

[taliv]

, but beyond that, why would he make a "correction" between each shot and what would said correction entail? I dont change SHIT when shooting groups.
.

Well sometimes I don't either but usually I have to correct for changing wind between shots. And when people are shooting at distance on a head target they may have a group and measure it when they're done but they're usually shooting for hits. So if you see your first one off the right shoulder you make the correction and get 4 hits and a miss instead of 5 misses regardless of what it does to your group size.
It's nothing to get emotional about. I just said I thought it was impressive because he shot that well without being able to clean it up since I doubt he could have resolved the bullet holes from 500

[NongShim]

Solid shooting.

[gt40]

It is OK shooting with the equipment you have. You probably could have been able to group much smaller with a 6mm Norma BR. like mine does. My best group at 1,000 yards was 3.25 inches for five shots watching the wind and I did not win the match. Here is the first time I tested my new custom turret at 400 yards. The 1,000 yard target was the very first time I ever shot at 1,000 yards. Didn't watch the wind and the scores and group sizes are in the lower right of target.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?...+custom+turret