Ranger RA556B / fatal shooting (graphic pics)

[WS6]

My very firstest deer ever, btw...



Ammo: Ra556b
Rifle: 16.1" Daniel defense with surefire 556-212
The shot: 25m to deer
The reaction: Deer "hunched/hopped", and then tore off running ultimately 70m down a hill and expired before I reached it (2-3min?) Its flight was erratic, and it hit several trees heading down the slope.

Deer was a doe, approximately 100-120# in weight.
Heart was hit, as we're both lungs. Heart was ruptured in several places from hydrostatic shock, in addition to the physical bullet path.

***What we can also learn from this, is that the proposition that a hydrostatic shock-wave within the CNS damaging the small vessels in the brain, leading to rapid incapacitation, as described by Michael Courtney, MD, is patently false. The heart was hit directly with a 5.56 round with enough force to cause structural failure beyond the path of the bullet, and the deer still made purposeful, directed movement, for 70 yards.

Entrance:



Exit:


Ground where she was hit (heart/lung tissue present):




Resolution:

40# of meat total, gave 5# or so to friends who invited me for the thanksgiving hunt I took her on! 20+ hours in a stand over the week-end paid off!

[jbjh]

Another successful, and delicious, venison interdiction. Congrats!

Heart was hit, as we're both lungs. Heart was ruptured in several places from hydrostatic shock, in addition to the physical bullet path.

***What we can also learn from this, is that the proposition that a hydrostatic shock-wave within the CNS damaging the small vessels in the brain, leading to rapid incapacitation, as described by Michael Courtney, MD, is patently false. The heart was hit directly with a 5.56 round with enough force to cause structural failure beyond the path of the bullet, and the deer still made purposeful, directed movement, for 70 yards.

Strictly speaking, the heart is part of the circulatory system, not CNS. Even if you completely destroy the heart, there is enough residual blood and oxygen present in the system to allow action until exsanguination overwhelms the other body systems (anecdotally, the Miami FBI shootout comes to mind).

The CNS is also a hearty (no pun intended) system. Unless the spinal cord is severed relatively high up, or base structure of the brain destroyed, an astonishing amount of action can continue to occur (Navy S.E.A.L. Matthew"Axe" Axelson was wounded in both the head and chest according to Marcus Luttrell).


Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy

[WS6]

Another successful, and delicious, venison interdiction. Congrats!



Strictly speaking, the heart is part of the circulatory system, not CNS. Even if you completely destroy the heart, there is enough residual blood and oxygen present in the system to allow action until exsanguination overwhelms the other body systems (anecdotally, the Miami FBI shootout comes to mind).

The CNS is also a hearty (no pun intended) system. Unless the spinal cord is severed relatively high up, or base structure of the brain destroyed, an astonishing amount of action can continue to occur (Navy S.E.A.L. Matthew"Axe" Axelson was wounded in both the head and chest according to Marcus Luttrell).


Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy

Familiarity with Dr Michael Courtney and his theories is required to understand how my experience discredits them.

In short, he hypothesizes that hydrostatic shock to the cardiopulmonary system results in that shock being transferred hydraulically to the brain via the large vessels, and through the small vessels in the brain, resulting in a ton of tiny aneurysms.

[wilson1911]

grats on your first one.

I prefer to hit the neck, that way its either hit or miss. They always drop like a rock. You will usually have your target go off just a bit after heart shot.

[jbjh]

Ah, that guy. His nonsense was before my time here on the board, but I remember others around the gun-o-sphere tearing him up and clinking beer glasses afterward.

My mistake. I though you were being (somewhat) serious.

See what happens when I'm stuck in traffic?

[WS6]

Ah, that guy. His nonsense was before my time here on the board, but I remember others around the gun-o-sphere tearing him up and clinking beer glasses afterward.

My mistake. I though you were being (somewhat) serious.

See what happens when I'm stuck in traffic?

I was always curious about his theories because of neurological changes I've noted in patients after bypass surgery. A bypass machine does not use pulsetile pressure but rather constant pressure, and it's been hypothesized that this can and does effect the brain. I have noted, like I said, changes in patients afterwards, so I was curious about his theories.

[Gunnar da Wolf]

Didn't the theory that a bullet hit to the heart / circulatory system could damage the brain come with the proviso that the heart valves had to be open to allow the wave/pulse/spike to pass thru? Sounded to me like a built in excuse as to why heart hits only cause the victim to be DRT some of the time. FWIW I demolished a big buck's shoulder and heart two years ago with a .375 H&H 300gr softpoint at 70ish yards and he ran about 60 yards before expiring. I'd say that much energy could overcome a heart valve if that theory held any water. It sounds to me like your doe acted like almost all the deer I've shot or helped to follow up on after a good heart shot.

Congratulations on taking your first deer! Did the bullet pass thru or was it recovered? Our SWAT guys are carrying that load and have wondered how it would do on deer but no one has opted to leave the rarely used deer blaster at home and take their work gun hunting.

[WS6]

Didn't the theory that a bullet hit to the heart / circulatory system could damage the brain come with the proviso that the heart valves had to be open to allow the wave/pulse/spike to pass thru? Sounded to me like a built in excuse as to why heart hits only cause the victim to be DRT some of the time. FWIW I demolished a big buck's shoulder and heart two years ago with a .375 H&H 300gr softpoint at 70ish yards and he ran about 60 yards before expiring. I'd say that much energy could overcome a heart valve if that theory held any water. It sounds to me like your doe acted like almost all the deer I've shot or helped to follow up on after a good heart shot.

Congratulations on taking your first deer! Did the bullet pass thru or was it recovered? Our SWAT guys are carrying that load and have wondered how it would do on deer but no one has opted to leave the rarely used deer blaster at home and take their work gun hunting.

Thanks! As pictured, the bullet punched the opposing rib/hide, left about a .45 caliber hole, and kept on for parts unknown.
I feel certain that mitral valve prolapse and rupture of said structure occurred, although I did not dissect the heart to confirm or deny that.

[T2C]

I have had to put a lot of deer down over the years after they were hit by a car, truck or minivan. The fastest way to put them down was to take the wind out of their sails. A cross body shot through both lungs with a 12 gauge slug would normally stop them right away. Anytime I tried a headshot, I would have to track them for some distance before shooting them in the lungs.

[acjones20]

For that kind of hydraulic pressure transfer to take place, the system has to be closed. When someone is choked, blood cannot enter the brain, and the blood that is in the venous side of the circuit does cause tiny hemorrhages (called petechia). Even these are in the smaller vessels in the eyes and capillaries of the skin. The arterial system of the brain is very robust, and can survive many times normal body pressure (people that do leg press/squats while holding their breath have systolic blood pressures over 300mmHg routinely). An open system (like a GSW to the heart/lungs) allows that pressure to dissipate. I've treated people that were crushed by cars (many times the hydraulic pressure of a GSW, and an injury that creates a closed system), and no one's head exploded at the scene.