Arming newbies? Strategies, Pros, Cons, Suggestions? Training, ammo, weapons?

[MountainRaven]

If you have someone who wants to get started with shooting, point them to a 22. If they want an "evil" gun, point them to an M&P15-22.

When it comes to defensive guns, yeah, I'd start by pointing them toward a handgun first and tell them that Obi-Wan Ken Hackathorn recommends that you have five magazines for your handgun as a minimum - and you're more likely to get them to reach that number than ten. Most newbies think that even five is high and ten is plainly excessive. The exact handgun is not, IMO, a big deal. Glocks are good, obviously, but if they have more interest in a Beretta, SiG, H&K, XD, 1911, or a wheel gun - even a single-action wheel gun - that's fine, too. I would rather they buy a gun that they're interested in, that they like, than that they buy a gun they don't like or don't have much interest in - they're more likely to shoot a gun that they like than one that they don't.

Once they have that down, then point them onto long guns. And long guns are going to depend on what they can spend: Yeah a Colt or a BCM is a good option and if they want to swing the money for a Noveske, Hodge, KAC, RD, Tavor, AUG, whatever, so much the better. But if money's tight, I don't think there's anything wrong with a Ruger AR-556 or a S&W M&P15 Sport - or a WASR, RAS, or other inexpensive AK, provided they have someone knowledgeable along when they go to buy their cheap AK, or buy it from somebody who inspects them before shipping them, like Atlantic. Make sure that they're squared away with good irons and let them do whatever for optics - so long as they keep the good irons, they'll always have the irons if they need them. And Gabe Suarez's recommended five magazine minimum (which should be easily attainable and fairly inexpensive, and if they have a chest rig, they're probably going to want to have enough magazines to fill it up and have one in the gun). If money's really tight or they don't like carbines and rifles for defense, point them to a Mossberg 500 or 590 - or a higher end gun like a Benelli M2 or M4 if they can spend the money and they just don't like carbines and rifles for defense.

If they went with the shotgun, I'd start pointing them down the path of surplus bolt-actions. $600 for a Ruger AR-556 might be right out, but a $300-400 piece of military history might be attainable - thinking of a Finnish Mosin-Nagant, a Combloc M44 MN, or a Swiss K31, here. Somebody who might turn their nose up at a $600 AR might not object to spending $700 (or more) on something like a K98, M1917, or M1903.

I don't think the advice to point newbies toward a Hi-point carbine is bad advice. But I think if we're concerned about organizing a community defense force, a group of lightly trained, like-minded people armed with a combination of bolt action hunting- and military surplus rifles, hunting and defensive shotguns, lower-end Kalashnikovs and ARs, plus handguns - even the odd cowboy gun shooter, with a pair of single-action wheel guns and a lever rifle in 30-30, 357, 44, or 45 - formed around a more highly-trained corps of individuals equipped with BCMs, Colts, Glocks, &c. and more specialized weapons would make a formidable foe for smaller, more poorly organized groups or larger, unorganized mobs.

The bigger problems are going to be teaching them to communicate, move, and apply combat medicine, IMO. And these are things that you aren't likely going to be able to train them in before a problem occurs that forces you to mobilize your community defense force.

[Jellybean]

The best bet for cheap/stubborn asses, is to take them shooting.

When you make 'em look like a chump, then they'll start asking for your advice on stuff. This is usually when you recommend a trainer.

There's a massive surplus of "materiel capability" vs "operational capability"...YMMV

....
To get them shooting, humiliate them on the range and they either start training or give up. The latter case is the type of person you don't want around in a SHTF anyways.

Both true.
And false.
Hear me out for a second- I'm in no way saying use the current PC bullshit model and dumb down your skillset to theirs so they feel better. NOR am I saying fawn over somebody just because they shot the gun, but they have a shit skillbase for doing so.
I'm a fan of encouragement coupled with realistic assessment. I see this SO many times (I'm sure everyone here has), most often a guy/girl couple of shooters- we've all heard the usual "my significant other is a crack shot, wings off a gnat, sniper" blah blah blah, and then when you actually get out there and see them shoot, it's a trainwreck- they can barely hold the gun right, let alone load the thing, and the accuracy is usually in the "side of barn" department.
Because apparently the person doing the training is to scared to give a little kick in the pants to make the person improve, for fear that they might get their feelings hurt and/or quit.
I would go so far as to say this is one of the many epidemics that is killing the "operational capability" side of the gun community, and in the case of "this is the type of person you don't want around post-SHTF", I totally agree with the quoted above.
That being said...

People get scared to participate if they think your *to* good, or if your kit is way better than theirs, etc...
For example, way back "in the day" I used to play paintball- for those of you who've been in the sport, I started with "back in the woods" pickup games with a small group of kids I knew. Started with a crappy Spyder marker, then got a Tippmann A5 with a Flatline barrel. People were in awe, because they thought it looked like a machine gun, and the flatline could shoot really far. In reality, it wasn't that great of a gun, but people were scared of me with it.
Fast forward a few years, I got into scenario ball with a team and upgraded to an electronic Etek Ego 08. Even though the gun was capable of shooting 30 BPS, the field limits are around 13-15 BPS. I posted ONE video if me running half a hopper of paint through it at 13 BPS on facebook. You would have thought I set off a tactical nuke in my backyard by the fearfully awed reactions of the folks I knew- "OMG it automatic!" *shrieking and flailing*
But again, in reality, I still wasn't such a highly skilled player that I could take complete advantage of the enhanced capabilities- but they thought I'd "kill" them all in 5 minutes by myself with that thing. Needless to say there was a sudden lack of interest in pickup games after that....
And even though I constantly put out invitations to have people attend scenario events with me, there was never a peep of interest. They were all to scared, because they thought EVERYONE at the games would be using the same markers- in reality, those who have played the sport know it's still about 50/50 on electronic markers versus semi-only, and of that 50%, about 50% again of the users are actually accurate....
But it was the perception of awesomeness that was the buzzkill.

So, transfer that experience to the gun community, and I have seen (and experienced, again) the exact same thing.
There's a number of issues at play here that need to be taken into consideration, but frankly "take some one to the range and kick their ass" isn't necessarily a winning strategy, unless of course they're one of those super commandos that won't shut the **** up, and need a smackdown.
Further, coming on with an overload of info often is detrimental as well- I tend to give people who ask a whole book of info, under the apparently mistaken information that folks are as hungry for information as I was at their stage of firearms use and ownership, but apparently this is not the case.
I blame the bite-size info cell phone generation, but maybe that's just me.
Something that seems to help slightly is give info ONLY on what they want info on at that moment, and as little as possible.
So if someone wants to buy a POS red dot and are like "What do you think" being more like "No, here are the issues, try this ONE item instead that fixes the issues" instead of giving them a verbal essay on all the available options for red dots, and why they should pick an Aimpoint over Truglo...
If they have issues with the price, point them to a sale, or a lightly used product, then point out how much they already spent on some other useless life accessory. "So, you think $350 for a PRO is to expensive, but you just spent a grand on an i-whatever and a big screen TV? Hmm..."
As I said, I'm not a fan of being a show-off at the range, but I'm all about destroying people's complaints about the price of things with logically based money-shaming...
Especially if they have more money to spend than me...

I've taken people to the paper target indoor range and they will blow through 250-300 rounds easy, but bring them to the outdoor steel range with holster draw, mag changes, etc... and they think 100rds is crazy. Perception I guess.

So true.
Folks will go to a rental range and blow through a few hundred rounds shooting nothing, and then you say they need the same amount of rounds and we're going to a class, or "come over to my place and I'll show you a few drills" and suddenly their shocked face turns on. Usually the same folks that ask why you need "that many boolits" when you suggest they buy a case or two... Or more than 2 mags...

When possible, I invite them over and show them what I would suggest. I can show them actual guns and explain the various features and terms.
For their first time on the range I start them with a .22 pistol, or a S&W M&P 15-22. Once they get the fundamentals we move up to a 9mm or an AR.

I'm a fan of the shotgun too, but a noob can only absorb so much. If they get into shooting, I will introduce them to the scattergun at a later date.

I like this approach too- many times people will hem and haw, but once they get it in their hands, and/or see how "cool" it is... they want one too.
Personally I'm not a big fan of showing off my stuff to anybody...But if you don't have a decent shop around, then it's the better idea.
I'd rather take them to a decent shop, and then they can see a LOT of different options (and if you've already had a good conversation with them, then you can point out everything you just told them so it can be backed up with fact that they can see and handle for themselves).
Further, if they're already IN the shop, and they see something they like, and you start being a good enabler like SS, you could be like "well, if you get that one, I'll throw in the first couple mags for you" or something, and it can be a good incentive to get the job done while they're actually interested, before they go back home and they start making excuses about how "the wifey says no". Good luck after that happens...

The .22 first approach I feel a little 50/50 on (kind of like "irons first"), simply because I didn't start that way, and it didn't turn me off from shooting.
When I took my very first shooting class, we started with .38 S&W revolvers, moved on to 9mm G17s and then went right into ARs for the rifle portion. There were 3 women in that class, one of whom was quite petite, and at a similarly low skill level as me, and we had no problems.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I would start with a .22 too, if I had a new person to train. However, if say we were at a rental range, or I had a personally owned firearm they were hankering to shoot, *within reason* I wouldn't stop them from shooting whatever they WANT to shoot, because if they're not interested they're going to get bored and distracted, and then you may as well talk to a wall.

For people with low budgets, I suggest an ak with mags and ammo. Once you sat adding optics, the price is a wash with a colt, but if they just want irons, and cheap, capable rifle, ak is great. If they want to add a $30 rds... no. Been there, twice. Irons are much faster on target than a dot that floats around like a ping-pong ball.....

I like to do this was well. And since steel case ammo is a bit cheaper, that can be another plus for the budget minded.
That being said, unless they're already "into" AKs, or there's some personal or historic reason they want one, it seems most people I've run across want an AR, often over an AK even after you show the potential benefits to a lower budget consumer.
This is just fine with me, since, unless they have serious budgetary concerns I'm going to point them at an AR all day anyway, simply because it's easier to operate and shoot.

On a side note, I too have run the route of recommending high-end ARs such as are found here. It never works. They immediately hear Colt or BCM (who's that?), or DD, LMT, etc, and they immediately turn off. Well, ok *occasionally* Colt is accepted, but the others usually get shut down as "too gucci" or "to expensive" or some similar argument.
My go-to suggestion has actually become the Spikes ST15LE Mid. Yes, Spikes. I said it.
Still excellent quality above any other mediocre AR out there, but runs at a better price point than even a 6920 usually starts at (or even cheaper if you find a sale like PA had over black friday), and is ready to shoot as-is with the included MBUS sight, BUT still has plenty of customization options, which the budget minded buyer can still take advantage of down the road since it's well priced.

Also, for budget buyers, I always suggest lightly used handguns- like shops that have police trade-ins or such. It's a great way to get low-money buyers into a high end handgun. A fellow I know did this after I suggested it, and found an M&P .40 online (BudsGunshop I think) with Trijicon night sights for significantly less than a new one.

And that's another thing that I've found can help with budget minded buyers- if they can be convinced they don't have to "have it all now" and that they can get more if they'll save for a little longer (which is why folks that have been mentioned here are balking at buying the "expensive" guns mentioned), going for either "best bang for the buck now, and upgrade accessories later" (ie, the ST15), OR seeing if they're open to a build can often work- that way they can buy it a little at a time without a huge immediate cash outlay, and STILL get what they want.

Hell, if you had your Neighborhood Defense Force looking to get into more effective weapons, and they're all on a tight budget, start them on a NDF budget build plan- get everyone together and work out what will be an acceptable base rifle that everyone "wants" (see my point above), lay out an "approved" list of parts for them to acquire (along with vendor links) on a schedule based on everyone's average budget- so let's say, month 1 everyone goes out and gets their lower receiver, buffer kit, LKP, etc. At EOM, you host a get-together at your place for BBQ, beers and lower assembly.
Congrats- you've just gotten everyone into a decent half a rifle, and fostered a spirit of community and teamwork, and self-advancement in having everyone build their own rifle as well. Think of it as their "dues" for membership in the NDF- instead of paying into a pot, everyone works to provide their own gear.
Even better, you're now promoting a good bit of commonality between weapons (if everyone runs an AR, then when it comes to gear, mags, and ammo down the road, everything is much easier- you may even be able to wrangle group buys for some things).
Next month, repeat for upper- everyone goes out and buys their agreed upon receiver, BCG, CH and irons. Repeat EOM get together for assembly and function test.
Next month, have everyone buy X number mags, rounds of ammo (to start- then have an ammo buying schedule after your essential gear is in place), sling, lube and cleaning kit. EOM reward is everyone finally gets to go to the range for zeroing, basics of operation with BBQ and beer afterwards.
Next month Optics, and so forth.
Repeat formula for guns and gear you need to get your NDF running, and then do the same for training- say week 1 and 3 in the month are personal training days (low round count/ high value drills) then at EOM you have a group training day to prove a maintenance of standards, as well as work on team fire and move drills. The perhaps plan 1 or 2 group trips to an actual training class per year, in lieu of one of the usual EOM group train events.
You'll either effectively kickstart a decent core group that associates and trains regularly, or you'll figure out who the flakes are real quick...Getting people to actually commit to anything is half the battle....

Which, on a side note, if they're also looking to kit up along with their firearm purchase, this can be a great way, as someone mentioned, to promote the actual, need for more accessories- for example once you figure out what level of gear and ammo you're going to run, well now you HAVE to have X number of mags and X number of reserve ammo to make it all work.