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Thread: Red Dot Vs Scope?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by teksid View Post
    I have both and prefer a RDS with a flip to side 3x magnifier for my "go to, SHTF" rifle. I don't like giving up the eye relief, speed and durability of an RDS. Plus I can ring a plate at 300yds every time with just an RDS on this particular rifle anyway.


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    I used a T2 and G33 for a time, and it is a VERY capable setup. The only reason I went with an LPV is because I wanted more magnification/precision than the 3.25x of the G33. The glass on the G33 is exceptional, though. I could see 5.56 bullet holes in 100 yard targets if there was a dark background behind the white target.

  2. #12
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    It kind of comes down to, if you're going to be fighting in buildings most of the time, a red dot will suit you best. If you will mostly be outdoors, a lpv will likely suit you better.

    Both can do both, but they have different strengths.

    You can also do like a red dot + d-evo.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 03-22-16 at 02:17.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    It kind of comes down to, if you're going to be fighting in buildings most of the time, a red dot will suit you best. If you will mostly be outdoors, a lpv will likely suit you better.
    Training is also a strong component. An LPV in a building isn't a downside given the time training with it. I honestly feel, having done CQB type training with simunitions in a structure, that training > any sighting system you end up with, for that venue.

  4. #14
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    I second WS6. I have both a T2 and G33 magnifier set up (copied him, had the LPV first) and a Kahles k16i. The T2 and G33 live on my go to SBR CQB set up, the Kahles on my go to 16" carbine/recce hybrid, general purpose rifle. There are many good LPV but I chose the Kahles for the glass, the thing is glorious at 1x! No free lunch, everything is a compromise. You need to practice consistent cheek weld to be fast with the LPV at any range but especially up close and on the move, LPV has significantly lower battery life too but does have an etched reticle usable without illumination.

    If I could have only one, it would be the LPV unless I was kicking doors for a living then it would be the T2/G33 combo.

    I always ascribed to the "RDS is good out to X hundred yards" machismo and it can be, but as I shot more... Magnification is nice! I don't have the best eye sight and it will only get worse. Target id, and stand off capability in a SHTF scenario would be huge. LPV crosses over to hunting well too. What you give up on speed up close is more than worth it for the gain of magnification and reticle use for general purpose, IMO. I don't know if I even have the skills to eek out the difference in speed anyway.

    I like the idea too of a LPV or even more recce type optic of 2.5-10x combined with a 45* mounted Aimpoint T2 in a Larue 45* mount for the fastest transition between magnification and a true RDS up close. I ingrain in my head to always turn the magnification of the LPV down to 1x when not specifically needing it to aim or search for a target to keep from ever shouldering the gun in a patrol situation and being dialed up searching for the target looking a straw effect. The 45* RDS can serve as a fast transition if caught with the magnification turned up when a real close threat presents itself. Something like holed up somewhere overwatching and your position is compromised inside the structure from below. Or a charging hog when hunting.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrysimons View Post
    I second WS6. I have both a T2 and G33 magnifier set up (copied him, had the LPV first) and a Kahles k16i. The T2 and G33 live on my go to SBR CQB set up, the Kahles on my go to 16" carbine/recce hybrid, general purpose rifle. There are many good LPV but I chose the Kahles for the glass, the thing is glorious at 1x! No free lunch, everything is a compromise. You need to practice consistent cheek weld to be fast with the LPV at any range but especially up close and on the move, LPV has significantly lower battery life too but does have an etched reticle usable without illumination.

    If I could have only one, it would be the LPV unless I was kicking doors for a living then it would be the T2/G33 combo.

    I always ascribed to the "RDS is good out to X hundred yards" machismo and it can be, but as I shot more... Magnification is nice! I don't have the best eye sight and it will only get worse. Target id, and stand off capability in a SHTF scenario would be huge. LPV crosses over to hunting well too. What you give up on speed up close is more than worth it for the gain of magnification and reticle use for general purpose, IMO. I don't know if I even have the skills to eek out the difference in speed anyway.

    I like the idea too of a LPV or even more recce type optic of 2.5-10x combined with a 45* mounted Aimpoint T2 in a Larue 45* mount for the fastest transition between magnification and a true RDS up close. I ingrain in my head to always turn the magnification of the LPV down to 1x when not specifically needing it to aim or search for a target to keep from ever shouldering the gun in a patrol situation and being dialed up searching for the target looking a straw effect. The 45* RDS can serve as a fast transition if caught with the magnification turned up when a real close threat presents itself. Something like holed up somewhere overwatching and your position is compromised inside the structure from below. Or a charging hog when hunting.
    User TUUKA has a 45 degree offset on his k16i for stages where there are up close "hoser" targets followed by a 300 yard shot immediately after, or vis versa.

  6. #16
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    I'm a big proponent of the 1-4 or 1-4 scopes. I love the Trijicon TR24, I have 2 one with a green triangle and one with the green dot with german crosshairs. Yes they are popular in 3 gun but they are also able to be used on utility carbines. If you have a good one like a Trijicon you can easily do CQB work, my TR24's have 4 inches of eye relief and the green triangle works like a red dot for me. I zero at 50 yds and on in close at sub 10 yds I just aim a little higher. If you practice with it you can be as fast as a red dot, because up close you don't need a perfect cheek weld even if you still have some black in your field of view you just get most of the target in and roll with it. There is a video of the steve fisher from sentinel concepts using an accupower vs a MRO and he's every bit as fast with the accupower as he is with the MRO

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExplorinInTheWoods View Post
    I'm a big proponent of the 1-4 or 1-4 scopes. I love the Trijicon TR24, I have 2 one with a green triangle and one with the green dot with german crosshairs. Yes they are popular in 3 gun but they are also able to be used on utility carbines. If you have a good one like a Trijicon you can easily do CQB work, my TR24's have 4 inches of eye relief and the green triangle works like a red dot for me. I zero at 50 yds and on in close at sub 10 yds I just aim a little higher. If you practice with it you can be as fast as a red dot, because up close you don't need a perfect cheek weld even if you still have some black in your field of view you just get most of the target in and roll with it. There is a video of the steve fisher from sentinel concepts using an accupower vs a MRO and he's every bit as fast with the accupower as he is with the MRO
    I would liked to have seen the groups he was shooting. It's honestly pretty easy to get a flash picture through the scope and deliver, like he did, but what if he were doing something like a VTAC "hostage" drill? Square, triangle, circle (dark only), 3 shots to each on the beep...

    THAT would have been a realistic test which required driving the gun, and delivering precise fire at close range. That's what I want to see an RDS vs. LPV go head to head with. Not just putting lead on a 6x8 area at 10-20 feet ASAP. Hell, just center the different colored thing in the scope and pew pew pew and you can't help but get THAT right. I am not at all accusing him of doing that, but he could have, and noone would be able to tell the difference. The above drill I outlined would make the wheels fall off that bus, and also would give us an idea of how the two systems truly differ.

  8. #18
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    I feel like I should mention the Leupold D-EVO in this discussion too. I have not written this idea off, I just haven't gotten the chance to shoot with one and I already have some effective kit. The price on them is coming down since first introduced, maybe one day I will get one to compare if the time and price is right.

    The concept is intriguing, it fills the gap between a LPV and a RDS/magnifier set up. Can't say as though it is the best of both worlds because I think the LPV would probably have better performance under magnification given its conventional configuration but it certainly is the best of the RDS side of the equation as it can be paired with a T series Micro and allows for the fastest possible transition to magnification with just a glance (given cheek weld and eyebox/relief considerations common to a LPV) and use of a reticle for holds over a simple magnified red dot. I can not comment on the optical quality, that is something I would want to check out for sure, clarity, FOV, etc.

    http://soldiersystems.net/2015/01/16...d-evo-and-lco/

  9. #19
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    I played with a D-EVO and an LCO setup on a carbine at Cabela's the other day (I had to ask to mount them and the old fudd behind the counter kept telling me it didn't work that way).

    Optical quality of the D-EVO seemed pretty good but it is sensitive to head placement and cheek weld in order to use it effectively. This would be a major complaint if it were the only sighting system and you had to get on target with it fast, in this instance an LPV would be much much better. However, when combined with the LCO or another RDS of your choice it is pretty slick. For close targets obviously just drive the rifle to the target with the RDS with whatever stock to face interface you can get, and then if you have a far off target use the D-EVO after driving the gun to it with the RDS. That is when you're not even using it right. Once you figure out where to plant your face on the butt stock, you can no shit see both your RDS and the D-EVO at the same time and it literally only takes a glance to focus on either one. Very slick.

    Downsides to the D-EVO + RDS combo that I concern me:

    1.) Cost, you have two optics in play. For those with an existing RDS this isn't such a big deal, but it is still expensive.

    2.) No illumination on the D-EVO reticle. You still have your RDS for low light, but compared to an LPV with illumination for both 1x to max power this is a disadvantage.

    3.) You will have an objective lens housing hanging off the right side of the rifle/carbine not sure how hard this will be on brass. Those of us who reload may be disappointed. Plus certain barricade positions you'll be red rod only for sighting.

    4.) No practical way to run a BUIS other than maybe placing the rear BUIS in front of your RDS instead off the normal far rearward position. For me the D-EVO only worked well if placed to the very rear of the upper receiver.

    5.) If you have astigmatism or poor corrected eyesight/older eyes the RDS will still be less than ideal even with the D-EVO to help on longer shots. The clarity of an etched reticle on an LPV that has diopter adjustment on the ocular lens will be easier to use in the long term for many shooters. For example I'm in my mid 30's now, and wear contact lenses, my eye sight is good with correction but I still see a bit of a flare with my old Comp M2's dot. I have no such issues with iron sights, much less the crisp perfectly focused reticle in a good scope. I also see a clean dot in my Trijicon RMR 01, and the Leupold Carbine Optic provided the cleanest and smallest dot I've ever seen, so maybe it's just an Aimpoint thing not a RDS thing for my eyes. Also for those I've heard kvetching about the LCO being expensive (it is), and a bit large (it is), I will say it gives one hell of a nice sight picture. Even if I wouldn't buy one because I'd just use my RM01 in front of the D-EVO if I got one (save $$$).

  10. #20
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    Another DEVO issue is that many people like to run 1.5-3x on an LPV when shooting 25+ yards out. It is still fast, and allows a bit more precision without killing FOV or eyebox. I found it massively eye-opening during a VTAC nightfighter course when a gentleman let me borrow his rifle with a MK6 on it. He had it set around 2.5x, and it was amazing how much easier it made shots at night 20+ yards out.

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