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Thread: Legal Considerations for Tactical Medical Responders (Book)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
    Pretty enlightening thread.
    I would guess there are enough guys right now trying to get in to, about to graduate from or a recent graduate of an EMT school who are or were medics who have some rather lengthy experience fighting in the GWOT.
    It would seem to me, (an admitted novice) that it would be a "Buyers Market" as I would think these guys cannot be that hard to find.
    If I was young and full of piss and vinegar again it would sound like a heck of a lot of fun.
    Not really. Most guys are sick of the BS. Civvy popo pay isn't as good as military pay.
    They can make more money in a hospital or going Federal if not contracting work. Plus it seems most guys are, rightfully, making use of the GI Bill

    Fire/EMS pays better and doesn't get the hate and dumbshit police do.

    A lot of prior service getting into civilian police work aren't exactly Audie Murphy.

    No Police Chief is willing to take a pay cut to pay for quality people. Retention is on a downpour. Everybody says it but it really isn't what it used to be.

    Used to be, if a guy got out the military; police work could be a good place to go.

    Now it's too much of a step down if it isn't Federal.

    Myself, I've suffered severe burn out so YMMV. But most guys do a year, realize "naw....this is bullshit", and get something more worthwhile.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    I agree with 5/8s to 3/4s of that. If you're going in, you're going to be at a modicum sworn, if even in a reserve capacity, and armed and at least given cursory weapons training.
    That's incorrect, or at least not true for all jurisdictions. I've "been in" many times. I'm not sworn, not reserve. Not a cop in any way, shape, or form, nor are any of the Paramedics on the team. All the medics on the team have weapons training, in fact qualify with all the weapons used by the team. And, from a liability perspective are required to take and pass this state's lethal force application test that all LEO's in the state have to take. The EMT-P's don't do any law enforcement, (although I've put cuffs on once or twice), and if they're armed, it's for self-defense only.

    There are very few EMT-Ps who are also sworn LEOs because it's expensive and generally requires an MD to sign off. If not EMT-P, the level of care they can deliver is Basic IFAK stuff only, not Advanced Life Support.
    Last edited by Hmac; 04-03-16 at 15:35.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmac View Post
    That's incorrect, or at least not true for all jurisdictions. I've "been in" many times. I'm not sworn, not reserve. Not a cop in any way, shape, or form, nor are any of the Paramedics on the team. All the medics on the team have weapons training, in fact qualify with all the weapons used by the team. And, from a liability perspective are required to take and pass this state's lethal force application test that all LEO's in the state have to take. The EMT-P's don't do any law enforcement, (although I've put cuffs on once or twice), and if they're armed, it's for self-defense only.

    There are very few EMT-Ps who are also sworn LEOs because it's expensive and generally requires an MD to sign off. If not EMT-P, the level of care they can deliver is Basic IFAK stuff only, not Advanced Life Support.

    In your situation, who assumes liability if the EMT uses deadly force at an active scene?

    You mention handcuffing suspects once or twice. Were you certified at handcuffing? Who assumes liability if the suspect complains the handcuffs were not applied properly, EMS or LE?

    This is a complex subject that requires consideration of all aspects of medical care and use of force. Given the current state of affairs dealing with global terrorism and domestic attacks by both international terrorists and mentally disturbed individuals, the aspect of using EMS in hot scenes needs to be examined by all agencies.

    The book sounds like a worthwhile read for anyone who would be responsible at the scene of an active incident or an EMS use of force trainer.
    Last edited by T2C; 04-03-16 at 15:49.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2C View Post
    In your situation, who assumes liability if the EMT uses deadly force at an active scene?

    You mention handcuffing suspects once or twice. Were you certified at handcuffing? Who assumes liability if the suspect complains the handcuffs were not applied properly, EMS or LE?
    The use of lethal force was entirely under the state's Personal Protection Act. All the medics performed that TEMS role completely outside of the agency that they worked for so the county assumed liability. As to cuffing, yeah I was trained, and the circumstances were exigent, but it's not part of the job description and not something I was ever comfortable with me or any of the medics doing. My paradigm and the protocols I wrote specifically precluded any law enforcement role for the medics. We were not to be interacting with any suspect that wasn't secured by an officer. That was a condition demanded by the County Attorney and by their Risk Manager.

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    Different jurisdictions are different.

    There really is no reason not to deputize anyone in a position where they are in a position to detain/arrest/use force under color of law regardless of purposeor personal reluctance.

    There's a bit of agency that comes along with actively assisting police as well as liability.

    Self defense laws typically don't stipulate proactiveness.

    As you know, all high risk arrests and so forth are very fluid and dynamic.

    There's way too much to personally lose.
    Maybe the county atty isn't looking out for you, but the county. Beyond basic self defense statutes (which apply to anyone) where is your immunity/defense for force/arrest powers?

    Not doubting your position, but it looks like there's potential for a legal pratfall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Not really. Most guys are sick of the BS. Civvy popo pay isn't as good as military pay.
    They can make more money in a hospital or going Federal if not contracting work. Plus it seems most guys are, rightfully, making use of the GI Bill

    Fire/EMS pays better and doesn't get the hate and dumbshit police do.

    A lot of prior service getting into civilian police work aren't exactly Audie Murphy.

    No Police Chief is willing to take a pay cut to pay for quality people. Retention is on a downpour. Everybody says it but it really isn't what it used to be.

    Used to be, if a guy got out the military; police work could be a good place to go.

    Now it's too much of a step down if it isn't Federal.

    Myself, I've suffered severe burn out so YMMV. But most guys do a year, realize "naw....this is bullshit", and get something more worthwhile.
    Where are you coming up with the pay information opinion?

    Big city departments are rife with tales of shady overtime with 200k plus salaries,
    And 80k pensions at ten years for twisting a knee, etc.

    Very few military personnel making over 200k a year,
    And getting enough limbs shattered for a hundred 100% disability will net some whopping VA pension of like 3k a month.

    Again, small town vs big city may make a huge difference.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramairthree View Post
    Where are you coming up with the pay information opinion?

    Big city departments are rife with tales of shady overtime with 200k plus salaries,
    And 80k pensions at ten years for twisting a knee, etc.

    Very few military personnel making over 200k a year,
    And getting enough limbs shattered for a hundred 100% disability will net some whopping VA pension of like 3k a month.

    Again, small town vs big city may make a huge difference.
    Not really. Factor in cost of living, personal conscientiousness for shady overtime, and rank.

    I got pretty bad hurt. No medical retirement or pension for me. But I'm also in a right to work state.

    Like, Northeast that may be a reality but then you're stuck up Northeast.

    The South sucks for police pay, I'm here to tell you, and it gets way too political. I attribute my bohemian lifestyle to being single, no kids, and driving a used vehicle.

    Part time jobs are out there but at a cost of time, energy, etc.

    It's not healthy policing 7 days a week and clunking in 16-18 hour days. Never again.
    A GOOD part time job pays great but then there can be conflicts of interest.

    Maybe it's a case of grass is greener or city.
    The Chief and Ass Chief may clear a quarter mill a year. Not a rank and file.

    Chicago and NYPD may be different but on average, no policing really does not pay even in a good size area.

    I know guys working in IT who pull good money without killing themselves.

    But YMMV, I think like Suffolk Co, NY is highest paying PD nationally but you have to be connected.

    Me better or worse I live in the South so...bleh.

    But Grass is Greener. I know of retired E9s who have a paid for house 4 cars and whatnot so YMMV

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Different jurisdictions are different.

    There really is no reason not to deputize anyone in a position where they are in a position to detain/arrest/use force under color of law regardless of purposeor personal reluctance.

    There's a bit of agency that comes along with actively assisting police as well as liability.

    Self defense laws typically don't stipulate proactiveness.

    As you know, all high risk arrests and so forth are very fluid and dynamic.

    There's way too much to personally lose.
    Maybe the county atty isn't looking out for you, but the county. Beyond basic self defense statutes (which apply to anyone) where is your immunity/defense for force/arrest powers?

    Not doubting your position, but it looks like there's potential for a legal pratfall.
    Oh yes. No question the County Attorney is looking out for the county, although he didn't have to sign off on medics carrying weapons for self-defense and in fact was advised by the state's Attorney General not to do so. And that's all we had...self defense statutes. No immunity, no arrest powers, certainly no proactiveness. Liability, yes. Lot's of it, but especially if we stepped out of the EMS role.

    I really enjoyed working with those guys. I'm out of that role, after 15 years, now Medical Director of the Bomb Squad. It's cool, but not that cool...


    .
    Last edited by Hmac; 04-03-16 at 17:49.

  9. #19
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    Heh bomb squad
    "No he's not giving you the Metal sign and Chaka. He was on the bomb squad"

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmac View Post
    The use of lethal force was entirely under the state's Personal Protection Act. All the medics performed that TEMS role completely outside of the agency that they worked for so the county assumed liability. As to cuffing, yeah I was trained, and the circumstances were exigent, but it's not part of the job description and not something I was ever comfortable with me or any of the medics doing. My paradigm and the protocols I wrote specifically precluded any law enforcement role for the medics. We were not to be interacting with any suspect that wasn't secured by an officer. That was a condition demanded by the County Attorney and by their Risk Manager.
    That was a smart move by your State's Attorney. I strongly believe that qualified EMS personnel should have the means to defend themselves if attacked while treating a patient. It should be crystal clear what EMS should and should not do in an unsecure area.

    I could go on, but that is as far as I want to go to prevent sidetracking the thread.
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