300 AAC for two-legged critters?

[Sensei]

Have you run the trajectory stats on these 110gr loads to compare? I'm seriously curious.

Here is some data compared against various 5.56 and 6.8 SPC loads. Drop is expressed in inches. All assume 2.5" site over bore, 60F, sea level altitude, 30 Hg Pressure. Velocities used for 5.56 and 6.8SPC rounds assume 16" barrel while 300blk assume 9".

Distances in yards:------------------------------> 0 | 25.0 | 50.0 | 75.0 | 100.0 | 125 | 150 | 175.0 | 200 | 225 | 250.0 | 275 | 300 | 325 | 350 | 400.0

1) 75 grain TAP T2 at 2750 fps 25 yard zero: -2.5 | 0.00 | 2.20 | 4.09 | 5.66 | 6.88 | 7.75 | 8.25 | 8.36 | 8.06 | 7.33 | 6.15 | 4.51 | 2.37 | -0.28 | -7.25

2) 75 grain TAP T2 at 2750 fps 50 yard zero: -2.5| -1.10 | 0.00 | 0.79 | 1.25 | 1.38 | 1.15 | 0.54 | -0.45 | -1.85 | -3.68 | -5.96 | -8.70 | -11.9 | -15.7 |-24.86

3) M855 at 3000 fps 25 yard zero---------->: -2.5| 0.00 | 2.25 | 4.23 | 5.93 | 7.34 | 8.43 | 9.19 | 9.60 | 9.64 | 9.30 | 8.53 | 7.33 | 5.66 | 3.49 | -2.46

4) M855 at 3000 fps 50 yard zero---------->: -2.5| -1.12 | 0.00 | 0.86 | 1.44 | 1.72 | 1.68 | 1.32 | 0.61 | -0.47 | -1.94 | -3.83 | -6.16 | -8.95 | -12.3 | -20.4

5) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 25 yard zero->: -2.5| 0.00 | 2.00 | 3.47 | 4.37 | 4.67 | 4.31 | 3.24 | 1.43 | -1.19 | -4.67 | -9.09 | -14.5 | -21.0 | -28.7 | -47.7

6) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 35 yard zero->: -2.5| -0.62 | 0.77 | 1.62 | 1.91 | 1.59 | 0.61 | -1.07 | -3.50 | -6.73 |-10.8 | -15.9 | -21.9 | -29.9 | -37.3 | -21.9

7) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 50 yard zero->: -2.5| -1.00 | 0.00 | 0.47 | 0.37 | -0.34 | -1.7 | -3.76 | -6.58 | -10.2 |-14.69 |-20.1 | -26.52 | -34.0 | -42.7 | -63.75

8) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 100 yard zero>:-2.5| -1.09 | -0.18 | 0.19 | 0.00 | -0.80 | -2.26 | -4.41 | -7.32 | -11.0 | -15.6 |-21.1 | -27.63 | -35.2 | -44.0 |-65.23

9) 110 grain Horn VMAX 6.8 at 2550 25 yards:-2.5 | 0.00 | 2.15 | 3.94 | 5.34 | 6.34 | 6.92 | 7.05 | 6.72 | 5.89 | 4.54 | 2.65 | 0.18 | -2.90 | -6.62 | -16.1

10) 110 grain Horn VMAX 6.8 at 2550 50 yards:-2.5 |-1.08 | 0.00 | 0.71 | 1.04 | 0.96 | 0.46 | -0.48 | -1.89 | -3.79 | -6.22 | -9.18 | -12.73 | -16.88 | -21.68 | -33.34

As you can see, a 50 yard zero with the TAC-TX gives you a very flat trajectory (POA +/- 1") out to about 130 yards. On the other hand, a 25 yard zero allows you to use POA with no hold over out to 250 yards or so, but the trajectory inside of 100 yards can vary up to 4". So, I suggest using a 50 yard zero if you are looking for distances out to 100 yards. Use a 25 yard zero if you envision the gun being used beyond 100 yards, but be willing to accept up to a 4" error for CQB use.

I hope that this helps.

[ABNAK]

Here is some data compared against various 5.56 and 6.8 SPC loads. Drop is expressed in inches. All assume 2.5" site over bore, 60F, sea level altitude, 30 Hg Pressure. Velocities used for 5.56 and 6.8SPC rounds assume 16" barrel while 300blk assume 9".

Distances in yards:------------------------------> 0 | 25.0 | 50.0 | 75.0 | 100.0 | 125 | 150 | 175.0 | 200 | 225 | 250.0 | 275 | 300 | 325 | 350 | 400.0

1) 75 grain TAP T2 at 2750 fps 25 yard zero: -2.5 | 0.00 | 2.20 | 4.09 | 5.66 | 6.88 | 7.75 | 8.25 | 8.36 | 8.06 | 7.33 | 6.15 | 4.51 | 2.37 | -0.28 | -7.25

2) 75 grain TAP T2 at 2750 fps 50 yard zero: -2.5| -1.10 | 0.00 | 0.79 | 1.25 | 1.38 | 1.15 | 0.54 | -0.45 | -1.85 | -3.68 | -5.96 | -8.70 | -11.9 | -15.7 |-24.86

3) M855 at 3000 fps 25 yard zero---------->: -2.5| 0.00 | 2.25 | 4.23 | 5.93 | 7.34 | 8.43 | 9.19 | 9.60 | 9.64 | 9.30 | 8.53 | 7.33 | 5.66 | 3.49 | -2.46

4) M855 at 3000 fps 50 yard zero---------->: -2.5| -1.12 | 0.00 | 0.86 | 1.44 | 1.72 | 1.68 | 1.32 | 0.61 | -0.47 | -1.94 | -3.83 | -6.16 | -8.95 | -12.3 | -20.4

5) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 25 yard zero->: -2.5| 0.00 | 2.00 | 3.47 | 4.37 | 4.67 | 4.31 | 3.24 | 1.43 | -1.19 | -4.67 | -9.09 | -14.5 | -21.0 | -28.7 | -47.7

6) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 35 yard zero->: -2.5| -0.62 | 0.77 | 1.62 | 1.91 | 1.59 | 0.61 | -1.07 | -3.50 | -6.73 |-10.8 | -15.9 | -21.9 | -29.9 | -37.3 | -21.9

7) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 50 yard zero->: -2.5| -1.00 | 0.00 | 0.47 | 0.37 | -0.34 | -1.7 | -3.76 | -6.58 | -10.2 |-14.69 |-20.1 | -26.52 | -34.0 | -42.7 | -63.75

8) 110 grain TAC-TX at 2150 100 yard zero>:-2.5| -1.09 | -0.18 | 0.19 | 0.00 | -0.80 | -2.26 | -4.41 | -7.32 | -11.0 | -15.6 |-21.1 | -27.63 | -35.2 | -44.0 |-65.23

9) 110 grain Horn VMAX 6.8 at 2550 25 yards:-2.5 | 0.00 | 2.15 | 3.94 | 5.34 | 6.34 | 6.92 | 7.05 | 6.72 | 5.89 | 4.54 | 2.65 | 0.18 | -2.90 | -6.62 | -16.1

10) 110 grain Horn VMAX 6.8 at 2550 50 yards:-2.5 |-1.08 | 0.00 | 0.71 | 1.04 | 0.96 | 0.46 | -0.48 | -1.89 | -3.79 | -6.22 | -9.18 | -12.73 | -16.88 | -21.68 | -33.34

As you can see, a 50 yard zero with the TAC-TX gives you a very flat trajectory (POA +/- 1") out to about 130 yards. On the other hand, a 25 yard zero allows you to use POA with no hold over out to 250 yards or so, but the trajectory inside of 100 yards can vary up to 4". So, I suggest using a 50 yard zero if you are looking for distances out to 100 yards. Use a 25 yard zero if you envision the gun being used beyond 100 yards, but be willing to accept up to a 4" error for CQB use.

I hope that this helps.

Great info Sensei, I may print that out for 5.56mm too. Won't have to constantly look it up!

The 35/36yd zero looks decent as the guy last page stated. You're only 3.5" low at 200 and no more than 1.9" high in-between. That's solid minute-of-man. All my 5.56mm guns are zeroed using the 50yd IBSZ but for this particular caliber/load I may have to opt for the 35/36yd zero.

[tom12.7]

I have had good success using 2.5"-3" high impacts at 100 with the Barnes black tip 300 AAC Blackout with 8"-11.5" barrels. Even with a 1x red dot, it's not that hard to use the dot size to place the impacts where you want. Holding the dot higher or lower instead of center sounds complicated, but it becomes easy with practice. Know your dot size and use it, you can make good hits further out than the dot centered any day. With practice, you can pretty much just do it without much thought, you can hit where you want pretty damn quick. Works well from the muzzle out to some distance. In a stress situation, and if a shot is sent centered, it may well be close enough to be effective at realistic distances.

[BufordTJustice]

If we are talking purely terminal ballistics inside 100 yards, I'll take the tac-tx over the 5.56 competition seven days a week and twice on Sunday. I base this on how this round performs in gel, on white tail deer, and against hogs.

Attachment 39061

I can't find any 5.56 rounds that do that well across all common intermediate barriers.

I take some issue with this assertion. No doubt that the black tip is excellent, but asserting it's superior to all 5.56 ammo is maybe going a little far. On par? Yes. Better? I would have to disagree.

Especially when including 70gr GMX, 70gr TSX, 62gr TBBC XM556FBIT3, and 50gr BH TSX in the discussion.

[Sensei]

I take some issue with this assertion. No doubt that the black tip is excellent, but asserting it's superior to all 5.56 ammo is maybe going a little far. On par? Yes. Better? I would have to disagree.

Especially when including 70gr GMX, 70gr TSX, 62gr TBBC XM556FBIT3, and 50gr BH TSX in the discussion.

Do you have some data to support that any of the loads you listed are on par with the chart that I posted which listed the TAC-TX's penetration and expansion through common barriers?

I'm not aware of any 5.56 load that opens up to 0.50" and penetrates 16" after passing through auto glass, or opens up to 0.60" and penetrates 18-20" after every other barrier including steel, plywood, wall board, etc. The 50 grain TSX and 70 grain GMX becomes a glorified 22 LR after passing through steel, and the 62 grain TBBC (probably the best barrier blind load that you listed) limps into 12" and 0.49 diameter after auto glass. All of the other 5.56 loads expand to about 30-50% less than the TAC-TX after each barrier or just bare gel. Moreover, none of the 5.56 loads can perform out to 300 yards - much less 300 yards with a 9" barrel. The loads that you listed demonstrate acceptable or good performance through those barriers, but the TAC-TX is excellent.

Some actual data is preferred to an opinion.

[ABNAK]

I take some issue with this assertion. No doubt that the black tip is excellent, but asserting it's superior to all 5.56 ammo is maybe going a little far. On par? Yes. Better? I would have to disagree.

Especially when including 70gr GMX, 70gr TSX, 62gr TBBC XM556FBIT3, and 50gr BH TSX in the discussion.

Not to speak for Sensei but I think the advantage of the 110gr Barnes is that even from a pistol/SBR-length barrel it meets or exceeds those 5.56mm rounds from a carbine-length barrel.

[BufordTJustice]

Do you have some data to support that any of the loads you listed are on par with the chart that I posted which listed the TAC-TX's penetration and expansion through common barriers?

I'm not aware of any 5.56 load that opens up to 0.50" and penetrates 16" after passing through auto glass, or opens up to 0.60" and penetrates 18-20" after every other barrier including steel, plywood, wall board, etc. The 50 grain TSX and 70 grain GMX becomes a glorified 22 LR after passing through steel, and the 62 grain TBBC (probably the best barrier blind load that you listed) limps into 12" and 0.49 diameter after auto glass. All of the other 5.56 loads expand to about 30-50% less than the TAC-TX after each barrier or just bare gel. Moreover, none of the 5.56 loads can perform out to 300 yards - much less 300 yards with a 9" barrel. The loads that you listed demonstrate acceptable or good performance through those barriers, but the TAC-TX is excellent.

Some actual data is preferred to an opinion.

Hornady, ATK, and Barnes have furnished all of your requested data on their LE websites.

With respect, you're assuming that temp cavity and overall tissue damage directly correlate to final expanded diameter. That's only true for bullets travelling the same speed, and of the same caliber and construction. But that's not the case here. In the case of the BH 50gr TSX, it's putting around 800 feet per second on black tip at the muzzle when fired from an 11.5" barrel (and 300 from a 9.5"). That's a 40% increase in velocity. That's huge.

That's going to have a substantial effect on temp cavity.

Specifically, Hornady TAP 70gr GMX is over 2500fps from an 11.5" barrel and has a superior BC.

The "gelatins" tab has the gel shots.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ri...mx-tap-barrier

And, without being smug, that's just one of my example loads. You're the one who made the assertion that black tip outclasses every 5.56 load. It's on you to support it.

Lastly, addressing your comments about 300 yard effectiveness, you're wrong. So wrong. Google Trident's 300 yard SBR tests on this forum.

[Sensei]

Hornady, ATK, and Barnes have furnished all of your requested data on their LE websites.

With respect, you're assuming that temp cavity and overall tissue damage directly correlate to final expanded diameter. That's only true for bullets travelling the same speed, and of the same caliber and construction. But that's not the case here. In the case of the BH 50gr TSX, it's putting around 800 feet per second on black tip at the muzzle when fired from an 11.5" barrel (and 300 from a 9.5"). That's a 40% increase in velocity. That's huge.

That's going to have a substantial effect on temp cavity.

Specifically, Hornady TAP 70gr GMX is over 2500fps from an 11.5" barrel and has a superior BC.

The "gelatins" tab has the gel shots.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/ri...mx-tap-barrier

And, without being smug, that's just one of my example loads. You're the one who made the assertion that black tip outclasses every 5.56 load. It's on you to support it.

Lastly, addressing your comments about 300 yard effectiveness, you're wrong. So wrong. Google Trident's 300 yard SBR tests on this forum.

That is not correct. Testing by Dr. Roberts has shown the temporary cavity of various 5.56 caliber bullets traveling between 2500-3000FPS (9-10 cm @ 10 cm extending to 19 cm) is virtually identical to 30 caliber bullets traveling 2200 FPS (8 cm @ 8 cm extending to 19 cm). That's right, the lighter, faster 5.56 rounds have SIMILAR TC's when compared to heavier 5.56 bullets traveling several hundred FPS slower. In addition, the TAC-TX has as larger or larger total temporary cavity (9-10 cm @ 8 cm extending to 20 cm in bare gel + 4 layers denim) as the most popular barrier blind 5.56 loads. That is because temporary cavity is not just determined by velocity, but is also heavily influenced by bullet expansion, fragmentation, or yaw. This has been shown time and time again - 22-30 caliber bullets that do not fragment, yaw, or expand have little TC and become 22-30 caliber ice picks. The link below describes the TC's:

http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/so...iber-gel-tests

The Hornady link that you posted absolutely shows similar temporary cavity sizes between the various 5.56 offerings and the TAC-TX, but in EVERY case the 300blk has a bigger permanent cavity.

Finally, if you don't like smugness, then don't come empty handed to a thread as a contrarian with an opinion where people have posted actual pictures, recovered diameters, TC size, and penetration depths. That is obnoxious.

[BufordTJustice]

Or, a more recent test, with an additional 130fps over a 9.5" barrel, and it looks nearly identical to the other 5.56 loads listed.

ALSO by Doc Roberts.

http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/ne...ts?page=1&nc=1

Providing simple numbers to try and measure a complex three dimensional wound track in a homogenous gel block, that is attempting to approximate performance on a non homogenous living thing is not necessarily devoid of smugness either. It's just the intellectual variety.

They're baseline, simple numbers that don't really explain what's going on in the gel block. That's why we post pictures of gel shots. Overlaying the images, to scale, shows that they are quite similar. Your assertion that they are NOT, is not supported by any of the data you've posted.

Further, I've killed five hogs using black tip in a buddy's 9.5" suppressed AAC rig. 80 to 220 lbs, from 40 to 90 yards. All heart shots, broadside, through the cartilage plate.

To contrast, I've killed 12 hogs with 5.56. 7 with 62gr TBBC XM556FBIT3 and 5 with 5.56 Hornady TAP 70gr GMX. First two TBBC kills were with my 18" Faxon barreled upper. All subsequent were with a buddy's suppressed BCM 11.5". Hogs were 120 to 300+ lbs, at 70-180 yards.

The 5.56 rounds generated less apparent terminal damage, but generated notably more immediate results. The larger hogs shot with 5.56 died faster, and moved less after being shot.

There's your data. Maybe go hunting and get back to me.

EDIT: of you can show me real world results that suggest that my personal experiences are, perhaps, a statistical anomaly.... then I'm open to that discussion.

Rehashing data that I've read dozens of times before isn't the method you require to support your assertion.

Lastly, i shouldn't have to throw my trump card, post insult, in order to have a discussion of empirical facts. That's why i didn't mention my hunting before. I really am open to having a discussion.

But I'm detecting a strong vein of used-car-salesmanship in your reaction to my request for supporting information. You're angry that I'm asking substantive questions and am knowledgeable on the topic. What gives? You're a respectable member of this forum, as am I.

[Sensei]

Here are the real world results - from the very Lightfighter thread that you posted. This is the last post on the first page from Jon Consiglio:

Then there's hunting. I've seen many dozens of hogs or shot them myself with 5.56, 7.62x39 and 308 (SCAR H mainly using TSX and fusion). Using a 14.5" or 16" barrel at ranges from 10 feet to 250 yards, we've used Black Hills 50gr TSX, Barnes 55gr and 62gr TSX, SSA 70gr TSX as well as Gold Dot, Fusion, TAP 75gr and m855. From a 16" AK we've used some type of FMJ and TSX.

Some of the moat impressive damage I've seen was from Black Hills 50gr TSX and SSA 70gr TSX From about 10 to 20 yards from a 14.5" or 16" barrel. Then I used the 110gr TSX at 70 yards from a 9" barrel and the effects were a little more impressive than anything from 5.56.

Finally, the debate in the LF thread dealt with which had superior terminal performance: the 6.8 SPC or the 300blk. Nobody, and I mean zip, zero, nada, nunca, nadie...suggested that 5.56 is the equal of the 300blk and especially the 110 Tac-Tx. You my friend, are the only person I can find who thinks they are equivalent even when a 9" SBR is used for the 300blk.

I get it that you think I'm hocking the Tac-Tx, but the OP's question dealt specifically with terminal performance with all else being equal. If we consider cost, availability, commonality, etc., then I agree that the advantage goes to a barrier blind 5.56 except in a very narrow set of circumstances.