Loaded for Bear - Is 10mm Sufficient?

[TacMedic556]

No. This debate, if it can accurately be termed one, rears its head time and time again. Simply put it comes down to energy, and the 10mm is barely a 357 Magnum in terms of ft. lbs. (500-700 ft. lbs.). Lately the discussion of the efficacy and merit of the 10mm as protection for those of us in Grizzly country came up yet again among some colleagues. Several of us who shoot often and are more versed in ballistics and firearms, chose to carry 44 magnums or greater (460, 454, and 500) - whereas several of our associates who shoot the least if ever (one has never fired his G20), all chose the G20 in 10mm for, "lightweight", "affordability", "rapid followup shots", among other statements. These men are all skilled bow-hunters, outdoors-man, however have little familiarity with firearms in general specifically pistol craft - as a few of them are skilled basic hunting riflemen. To them a bullet is a bullet, a gun a gun, if it goes bang and throws lead - well than it worked. They simply do not pay attention to energy, penetration, or any of the factors related to those facets of the conversation.

What is your "bear load" hand gun? (Most of us are aware a shotgun or heavy hitting rifle is superior).

And how much time do you spend in Grizzly country a year?

I wrote them this as a response recently. To a few of my brothers:

http://dennyducet.blogspot.com/2016/...-for-bear.html

[HKGuns]

I can only tell you that when I am in Bear country I carry one of my S&W 44 Mags loaded with 300 gr hard cast lead bullets on top of a stout load of 2400.

[Coal Dragger]

For me it would be my only wheel gun, although my exposure to brown bear areas is very limited in scope. For reference the revolver in question is a Freedom Arms M83 chambered for .454 Casull. I'd probably run 335gr or 360gr hard cast wide nose flat points with a gas check, and a max safe load of H110 and small magnum rifle primer. Plus I'd assemble these with a very heavy crimp to prevent bullet jump.

I'd also consider the 300gr Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame in 300gr or 325gr. Again over max safe charges of H110 etc.

A bullet that isn't heavy enough or tough enough to smash large bones, carry into the target, reach vital organs/damage the central nervous system are worthless.

A 10mm will surely kill a bear, I have serious doubts that the round can reliably do so in a decisive enough manner to stop the bear from mauling you at close quarters. At least the heavier calibers, well placed, give you a chance of crippling the animal so you can un-ass the area.

[farmhard]

Excellent write up. Being from kansas, far away from bear country never felt so good.

[El Cid]

I'll start by saying I have no illusions that 10mm is on par with magnum calibers. I don't hunt. I've never shot at a bear or any other 4 legged critters.

But... I carry a Glock on/off duty. I train with them, and compete with them. For the last 10 years I've been focused on Glocks. My concern is that under stress I want every advantage. I want that muscle memory to work for me, not against. I rarely ever shoot a revolver. When I do it's a j-frame and as different from a 460S&W as a Ferrari is from a Prius.

You can dismiss the fast follow-up shots and capacity, but in my view they are valid points in any situation. If all I have to protect myself from a charging animal is a handgun, I want the ability to put several quick shots on target. We know people hit less under life and death stress with 2 legged attackers, why would a moose or bear be any different? And revolvers by design flip more than semi-autos.

The path I'm starting down is a Glock 40 (6" 10mm) as a woods gun. I know from another forum that folks have had reliability issues with the G20 and have replaced it with 45 Super (still nowhere near a magnum wheel gun wrt power). This person does live and work in Alaska so I don't dismiss his viewpoints. To date all my camping/hiking has been along the eastern seaboard. Yes there are bears in NC, PA, VA, etc - but not like Alaska or the northwest. I am planning some hikes in The Bob and Alaska in the next couple years, which is what got me shopping for a "woods" gun.

I plan to start testing the Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator as an option. There's a video of it easily going through bulletproof glass and I'm hoping that what it lacks in energy it will make up for with penetration. Also, the Federal Trophy Bonded 180gr JSP has been out of stock for over a year everywhere.

Again - I'm not expecting any 10mm to equal a magnum. And I may end up with a revolver one day, but given my experience and training with Glocks I feel I have to give it a go. Besides, all handguns suck and if I'm using one its because the 12ga semi auto full of slugs or the 45-70 lever gun is out of reach. It also means I failed to make noise and stay aware of my surroundings.

On a side note - the Canadians have a group of game wardens I think (might have been a military unit) who are issued G20's for Polar Bear defense. Aren't Polar Bears more dangerous than Brown and Grizzly bears? I wonder if they have had any actual shootings.

[TacMedic556]

I am planning some hikes in The Bob and Alaska in the next couple years, which is what got me shopping for a "woods" gun.

If you practiced even a mediocre amount, and shot a nice revolver, you would be fully capable of using one against bear. Remember, "calm is contagious" and you are obviously in the line of work where, being calm in high stress events is necessary. If you are going into the Bob, get a 44 at least. PM me when you get up there for a bear I mean beer.

This pic was in all the papers after if happened. This is in Glacier, right above the Sun road (by a few hundred feet) the trail there is shared by game and human. Notice the hiker hiding and pinned to the cliff with the Grizzly walking off after passing over him. This same trail saw a brutal attack on a man and daughter close to 10 years ago.

[El Cid]

If you practiced even a mediocre amount, and shot a nice revolver, you would be fully capable of using one against bear. Remember, "calm is contagious" and you are obviously in the line of work where, being calm in high stress events is necessary. If you are going into the Bob, get a 44 at least. PM me when you get up there for a bear I mean beer.

Thanks! The offer is appreciated and I'll definitely hit you up. I have no timeline at all for now. Also going to try and coordinate with a good friend who is in Cour d'Alene.

I hear you, and I started this experiment knowing I may still end up with a revolver. But with a blue label Glock at about 1/3 the price of a Smith 460, and with all my training and experience with Glocks, I feel compelled to try. The Glock also suits me better for the two legged predators that roam the woods. Not sure which I'm more likely to encounter.

Help me out a bit regarding penetration. I've always been under the impression that was the key because of the limited (and tough) target available during a charge. Some of the ammo now available in 10mm gave me some hope. I admit I can't say what if any correlation there is between 3/16 steel or bulletproof glass and a bear... but I was impressed.

10mm and 44 Mag vs steel plate: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eCUFzNLHP2Q

Glock 40, bulletproof glass: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk

The solid copper bullet loaded by Underwood has gone through 3 blocks of gelatin (36"). Actually, they load that same bullet for 44, 460 Mag, 500 Mag, and even 460 Rowland (saw that mentioned in the thread). Maybe y'all should try it. A solid copper bullet tends to penetrate everything very well.


And I am firmly in the camp of believing a long arm is the way to go, but also realize I may have to use what's within reach. I'll have to see if any of my coworkers who hunt have a magnum revolver. Maybe I can do some side by side comparisons on the shot timer. Using paper of course... None of my friends were willing to try the softball thing. Lmao!

[TacMedic556]

El Cid,

The guys I know who do choose the 10mm all carry HARD CAST bullets from either COR BON or BUFFALO BORE - and the hottest loads they can get, all around 700+ ft. lbs.

Hard solid NON-HOLLOW TIP bullets. I am sure even a solid bronze or as you mention copper would be good.

[ColtSeavers]

Who the hell uses bear spray?! I produce my own odorous deterent when charged by grizzlies just fine.

[El Cid]

El Cid,

The guys I know who do choose the 10mm all carry HARD CAST bullets from either COR BON or BUFFALO BORE - and the hottest loads they can get, all around 700+ ft. lbs.

Hard solid NON-HOLLOW TIP bullets. I am sure even a solid bronze or as you mention copper would be good.

Thanks. I was eyeballing this one as an option also: https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-a...ast-flat-nose/

This is what I have on the way: https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-a...me-penetrator/
After seeing some penetration tests I figured it was a worthwhile experiment.

Wanted to try these but can't find them in stock anywhere for over a year: https://federalpremium.com/news/news...nd=5&year=2014

I always liked Corbon but have seen some things lately that may indicate they aren't producing what they used to.

ETA: what's a decent test for penetration? Is there an accepted medium? What thickness of steel? I don't have access to ballistic gel so it would be very non-scientific. Lol!