Loaded for Bear - Is 10mm Sufficient?

[mooosie]

Sinister is right!


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[Coal Dragger]

Really? If you're going to resort to insults then maybe you should understand that many of us don't feel we need to prove our manliness or compensate for shortcomings by carrying the biggest baddest caliber handgun. I can shoot anything and do so accurately. But a charging bear isn't going to provide you with much time. The physics involved in recoil and shot recovery with a 454 Cassull are slower than a 10mm Glock. Doesn't matter who the shooter is - get the best shooter from Delta, a Grandmaster competition shooter, and a newbie who just got his first gun. All of them will be faster with the Glock and get more shots on target in the same amount of time as with a magnum revolver.

And it is more than just "pressing a duty style weapon into service" for bears. I shoot a lot. Almost weekly. I compete, go to classes and 99% of that is with a Glock. Sure I could put in the time to master a revolver. But if I can use a Glock for that role and thereby leverage all my training and competition - why not? Unless I drastically alter my routine, I will always be much faster with a Glock. And I'm much more likely to be forced to shoot a two legged predator with my duty G19 than a bear with anything. I also find it telling that two people who live and work in Alaska stated they rely or used to rely on 10mm. The one who dropped it moved to 45 Super.

What would you consider a realistic test? You use your bear revolver with full power ammo and I'll use my G40 with the same. An 8" circle at 7 or 10 yards? With a certain par time based on the time a person can expect when being charged?

And where the hell do I find phone books in 2016? Lol! Can't recall the last time I saw one.

Our phone company still delivers the damn things. Not sure why. I guess so people can soak them in water and shoot stacks of them to comparatively test firearm calibers. LOL. Not a perfect test, although the second methodology I linked to the rounds had to destroy bovine skeletal bones as well.

I understand the desire to put more shots on target, but when those shots are less likely to be capable of doing the job I personally have an issue with it as a viable plan.

I doubt any of us can reliably hit a bobbing jinking target the size of a softball moving 35mph with a pistol. Much less one encased in a heavy skull attached to a 600 pound or larger animal charging us while we shit our pants. So in the interests of allowing more margin for error in shot placement a heavier caliber that can penetrate deeply into the body, and wreck bones, muscle, and organs in my mind is a superior choice. Yes you still have to have good shot placement, but you have a larger area to shoot at if you're not limited to trying to penetrate the skull and correctly locate the brain.

The data set of shootings of bears with handguns in self defense is probably much smaller than the data set of bears killed by hunters. Even eliminating rifle hunters and looking at handgun only, I suspect the data pool would be a bit larger. I also suspect but can not prove the success rate of single shot kills is much higher the larger the bullet. Shooter skill and bullet placement being equal. A hunter is unlikely to attempt a head shot on a bear with any firearm because frankly even on a calm bear (or any other animal) that is a low probability shot. Dangerous game hunters usually try to put their bullet where it will destroy a shoulder and penetrate to vitals after that. That both anchors and kills the critter humanely, no one wants to track a wounded animal much less one that can kill you. Being as my tracking skills are marginal I try to shoot all my game this way. Works great on deer or antelope, they don't go anywhere although you do lose some meat.

For the record I was just razing Alaskapopo a little. Don't tell me you don't give your friends shit from time to time.

[Edmo]

During my time stationed in Alaska I always had this S&W 629 Mountain Gun on my belt when in the bush.

I found this 44 Magnum was just light enough to carry and powerful enough to make me feel safe as a last ditch level of protection. It was often accompanied by a more capable 12 gauge or rifle.

I only unholstered my 629 once and fortunately didn't have to use it since the bear changed it's mind and moved on.

Carry what works for you... For my time around bears, a 12 gauge with slugs or my 45-70 lever gun made me feel much more comfortable than any of my handguns. Big bears are just that... BIG!!!

Edmo

[ColtSeavers]

Mare's Leg .45-70.

or

[williejc]

As I said earlier in the thread, the only bear I ever saw was in a zoo, and he did tricks for peanuts. I do agree that head shots on a bear would not be the best choice. Handgun bullets have bounced off human heads, or at least changed course on them and did not continue on a straight path. Locally, some hog hunters have had 9mm bullets do the same maneuver on feral hog heads. Likewise, the same has been reported for buckshot. With bears, one can only wonder whether or not hitting the animal in the jaw or snout would deter or enrage the beast.

Recently I talked with a dentist who spent many years in Alaska. A pilot, he flew into remote areas to treat the native people and to hunt, fish, and hike. When hiking or fishing, he carried both a 12 ga pump loaded with slugs and a .44 mag revolver. His shotgun theory was that the best plan was to let the first round be buckshot and the remainder be slugs. Why buckshot? He hoped that the buckshot would make the animal stop and rear up on its hind legs. Then he would shoot it with slugs. He admitted to being afraid of these animals and claimed always to being vigilant and aware of his surroundings. One fact that he shared and that I can't remember is that he specified a certain brand and type of slugs.

One other thing. By now I'm surprised that somebody has not recommended a pistol grip shotgun as the carry weapon. Notice that it's not my recommendation.

[GLB]

All you can hope for with a handgun on bears is to penetrate the skull or reach the spine. A 10mm is my choice now. Big bore revolvers are so slow to shoot and follow up shots are a must. Plus I shoot semi's a lot more than revolvers. But a good DA revolver in 44 mag or higher is not a bad choice as long as you train with it.
Pat

I agree with this, in fact Alaskapopo and I train together all the time with the Glock 20s using full power loads. We both live in bear country we even have bear alerts for our little community that residents post online. We both have had bear encounters, and every year I have several Brown Bears in my yard looking for food. First off the handgun of any type is a poor choice for bear compared to a rifle or shotgun. But the handgun is something that can be with you All the time and is better than nothing. When I first moved to Alaska about 18 years ago I carried a 44 mag revolver and thought that was a good choice as far as handguns go until I had my first encounter with a bear. I was amazed how fast he moved and luckily he turned just a few feet from me because I would not have gotten a well aimed shot off. Years latter I started to look at that and wanted a trail gun that I could carry with me all the time and because my duty gun is the G22 I chose the G20 with 200 grain full power loads. The 10mm semi auto is not as powerful as the revolvers can be but I can deploy the G20 much more quickly and deliver multiple hits compared to a powerful revolver. When I am charged by a bear I don't need to kill the bear I need to turn it with good fast hits. However there is also a responsibility to dispatch a wounded bear if he was not killed during the encounter and that would be a good time to get the rifle or shotgun that we wished we didn't leave behind.

[johnnywitt]

I agree with this, in fact Alaskapopo and I train together all the time with the Glock 20s using full power loads. We both live in bear country we even have bear alerts for our little community that residents post online. We both have had bear encounters, and every year I have several Brown Bears in my yard looking for food. First off the handgun of any type is a poor choice for bear compared to a rifle or shotgun. But the handgun is something that can be with you All the time and is better than nothing. When I first moved to Alaska about 18 years ago I carried a 44 mag revolver and thought that was a good choice as far as handguns go until I had my first encounter with a bear. I was amazed how fast he moved and luckily he turned just a few feet from me because I would not have gotten a well aimed shot off. Years latter I started to look at that and wanted a trail gun that I could carry with me all the time and because my duty gun is the G22 I chose the G20 with 200 grain full power loads. The 10mm semi auto is not as powerful as the revolvers can be but I can deploy the G20 much more quickly and deliver multiple hits compared to a powerful revolver. When I am charged by a bear I don't need to kill the bear I need to turn it with good fast hits. However there is also a responsibility to dispatch a wounded bear if he was not killed during the encounter and that would be a good time to get the rifle or shotgun that we wished we didn't leave behind.

I agree with this. I was a Bush Pilot in AK for quite awhile (got over 2500hrs AK time) in the 90's and even married an Eskimo (well 3/4 Eskimo & 1/4 Swede haha), so I have the benefit of my Bush In-Laws experience with these animals as well as my own. Your only chance to stop a Brown/Grizzly, or a Polar Bear, is a CNS Shot if you are using a Handgun. Sooo... I have often thought that a 9mm with good bonded 147gr or 124gr bullet & a headshot would work about as good as anything handgun wise, since maybe you could actually have a small chance of hitting with it and maybe hitting it multiple times with a couple of lucky/good hits.
Best bet is to fire over the bear first and see if it will go away-the old noisemaker thing. Bears will sometimes charge and break off, or snap their teeth at you, stand on their hind legs, etc., to show aggression and to get you to leave their area. I have flown over vast herds of Caribou really low and had Brown Bears hunting the peripheral literally stand on their hind legs and swat at my airplane while snapping their teeth so hard you could see the spit flying out of their mouth. They don't like infringement of their territory too much.
Best bet though imo is a Remington 870P, or Wingmaster w/ a 14" bbl. & no Mag Ext. and some good 000 buck that will penetrate their skull. If you can't stop the bear with 5-6 000 Mags, then you are dead anyway. This package isn't too heavy or obnoxious to carry around while fishing or berry picking, etc.
Also, I have always thought that if you are going to use Slugs, you may as well get a Firearm that is designed to fire single projectiles instead of one that is designed to fire multiple and a shotgun with 000 2.75" Mags has pretty good penetration- easily enough to penetrate the skull on a big Brownie. YMMV.

[QuickStrike]

Shot a box of ammo through my giant .454 snubby today (ruger alaskan). Not too bad with the cushioned back strap of the hogue grips.

A solid wood grips/backstrap design might be less fun...

Maybe lighten the DA pull a bit and I am pretty comfy with it for most animals, as far as handguns are concerned.

[Spooky130]

I remember reading this story in the papers when I was in Alaska:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos...-killed-alaska
.454 on a charging 900-1000 pound bear looking to eat the guy and his dog... Pretty amazing what he did and the skid marks in his drawers probably matched the ones the bear made on the road.

I went with a John Ross PC .500 with big, heavy bullets. It isn't something I would take on a hunt for bears - just something as a last ditch defense. I use an Alaska-Guide chest rig to put the gun in a place where I can get to it with gear on and also comfortable enough I won't leave it hanging in a bush since it weighs only 57 ounces... I would rather carry a nice Marlin in .45-70 but this is a handier set-up.

I also have a G20 and I would feel undergunned but would definitely choose it over bear spray. I lived in the boonies in Alaska for 18+ years and most local folks would carry 12 gauges or .44s since the guns and ammo were common. As the .44+ size/powered handguns came out you started to see more and more of those - lots of .454s.

Reference:
http://www.gunblast.com/LT_SW-JohnRoss500.htm
http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php

Spooky

[Coal Dragger]

That article demonstrates how vital a heavy step down crimp is on ammunition for a big bore revolver. I see too many factory loads in .454 with inadequate crimps, particularly if you plan to use them in a lighter weight revolver.