Loaded for Bear - Is 10mm Sufficient?

[nova3930]

Coal dragger,

Perfect response to the capacity for brown bear nonsense. A charging bear most likely will not give you the chance to empty a 5-6 shot revolver anyway.

Capacity is of secondary importance for dangerous game, just look at the big double rifles preferred by many African PH's. Essentially 2 extremely expensive, single-shot rifles duct-taped together.

My wife's uncle was some sort of park ranger in Africa in the late 70s. Has two nice Holland & Holland double rifles that he carried while he was over there, one in 375H&H and one in 500 Nitro. He's said much the same about dangerous game. If an elephant or buffalo is charging, under ideal conditions it would be hard to get off more than one shot so you basically lose nothing going to the double rifle. In fact the double trigger on the double rifle makes it more likely you'll get off two if necessary.

[Leuthas]

There might be cause to suspend black bear from the discussion simply due to their typical size here on the west side of the US. I've seen countless black bear over time - I live in 'bear country' as it were - and used to hunt them as a kid. I've seen a bear first hand taken down with a few shots from a Glock 17 with unknown ammunition and granted he didn't drop, but he sure took a jolt and gave up several paces away from where he started. These are surprisingly small bears, skinny too, and I wonder if some of them even weigh more than myself.

[pinzgauer]

Well the 700ft-lb bullets will fail to penetrate the roughly 3 feet of fur, hide, fat, muscle, bone, and organs. This should be easy enough to understand, but a lot of you seem to be having a tough time. It doesn't matter how many times you shoot a bear with your 10mm, if the rounds fail to penetrate to vitals or smash bones they effectively might as well be complete misses for the purposes of keeping that bear from mauling you.

Hmm, quite a few absolutes thrown around there. So we know as fact that 10mm can't kill a Brown, but 44 can? I have no doubt a 44 will kill one better, or have greater odds, etc. But you lose a bit of credibility making blanket statements. What's the magic number? 1200 Ft Lb? Does that mean 1100 won't? 1200 with JHP's vs 800 with solids?

I'm not a fan of .243 and smaller for Whitetail, yet thousands (millions) are killed each year with them. Even .223 are taking them down. Granted, they are not likely to eat you if they don't die immediately, but it's clear that ballistics in the real world are not quite as simple as many depict.

Not trying to defend the 10mm as potent Brownie medicine, just that it's not quite as black & white as it sounds.

I also have to laugh at all the pronouncements of "well I can put more shots into that bear with my auto (never mind the fact they are totally ineffective) than I can a revolver! 3 shots at 700lbs-ft is 2100, and that's better than one at 1400."

If that's what you heard, then I was either not clear or you were not reading. All that wonderful power does not make a bit of difference if you cannot get it out of your holster in time.

I know as fact that I can get shots off faster with my 10mm in it's field holster in field conditions than I can with a 6" large frame revolver in the best holster I can find for it. (Based on quite a bit of experience with 6" Blackhawks" in the field)

Most people are envisioning hunting scenarios for their big wheel guns, pistol in hand. The issue is not them, it's the flyfishing, canoer, hiker, etc doing something else without the pistol in their hand. You sure you can get that wheelgun out of it's shoulder or waist holster wearing a pack? or in your waders? Holding a bow? In time to stop that charge?

For the multiple shots on target crowd....yeah you won't have time for that shit. Have any of you seen how fast four legged animals accelerate? Ever noticed how much higher their top speeds are? Stop thinking like you are practicing two legged critter defense, we upright monkeys move really really slow by land mammal standards. So when we fight each other we have more time to do stuff at a distance to each other while we close.

Fair enough. But that "time to get shots off" has to start with hands holding something else, or wearing a pack, etc. That unless you walk around AK with your quick draw "Vaquero" rig.

Capacity is of secondary importance for dangerous game, just look at the big double rifles preferred by many African PH's. Essentially 2 extremely expensive, single-shot rifles duct-taped together.

Except PH's keep reloads between their knuckles if using a double, and many, many, carry large bolt guns. It's not just due to the cost and weight of the double. PH's are also primarily there to take a quick anchor shot if the client's shot goes bad.

Thinking about this more, given the grizzly bear acceleration and top speed I wonder if you will even get 2 shots off with anything if you're within 50 yards and caught flat footed.

They have bear charge simulators that people train against. But again, it's not how fast you can get a shot off holding a revolver vs auto. It's how fast you could unholster in real world field holsters, aim, and get the shot off.

Hand cannons are great. Maybe contenders in 7/30 waters, or 444 or whatever are the best answer. Or an XP-100 in 7mm-08 shooting heavy for caliber solids. If bigger is better and you only have time for one shot, why take a measly 44? I have first hand experience in energy with the things I just mentioned relative to the 44's...

The only reason I'm even bothering to answer is more than once I've known folks, typically fly-fisherman or bow hunters, go buy a 44 to take to AK. Never practice. Don't think through how they'd carry it wearing waders or pack, etc. This is not the 44's fault, but the odds of them being able to shoot accurately are very small. It's emotional insurance only. Yet some of these same folks could shoot (and more importantly, carry) a Glock or similar full power 10mm without difficulty.

Most agree that under head on conditions in most cases neither 10mm or 44 mag will penetrate a large brown or grizzly skull plate. And that hard cast or similar heavily constructed bullets are needed no matter the caliber. Big bears have been killed with 10mm, 41 mag, and 44 mag. And also, not killed.

There even are folks that prefer 41 mag for big bear even, for some very specific reasons.

For every "you only get one shot" case there are examples for folks getting 3 or more.

I just don't think it's quite as black & white as depicted. And certainly if you factor in carrying hand cannons in real world outdoor activities. I have many hours of hunting with 10mm, XP-100 in 7BR, T/C Contenders and other high power pistols. Even when you are looking for/expecting game it gets tiresome carrying big pistols. Put typical 6" revolver field holsters in the mix and things get much more cumbersome.

[HKGuns]

It is a free country, you can carry your 10mm and get eaten with 10 rounds left in your magazine. I'll continue to carry a stout .44 Magnum that I shoot very well.

[mooosie]

Pinzgauer I notice in your ramblings that you have first hand experience in energy with cartridges ! I venture you have no experience looking into the eyes of a charging bear! And if you do while holding a 10 mm I doubt you will do it again


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[HeruMew]

Hmm, quite a few absolutes thrown around there. So we know as fact that 10mm can't kill a Brown, but 44 can? I have no doubt a 44 will kill one better, or have greater odds, etc. But you lose a bit of credibility making blanket statements. What's the magic number? 1200 Ft Lb? Does that mean 1100 won't? 1200 with JHP's vs 800 with solids?

........

Bravo, sir.

I enjoyed the breakdown provided. Sounds to me like you're not bashing any particular caliber, though I can see you're already receiving flak for that kind of "perspective", but more-so pointing out the false sense of security something like a .44 magnum would provide to an inexperienced shooter. Even more specific, how certain people who are already much more proficient with a weapon, such as a 10mm, and are choosing to put themselves further in to harms way by picking up a pistol they may not even be able to shoot straight.

I'm on the same page, and tend to agree. I would feel much more uncomfortable toting something around I have little experience with, even more so with no experience, with any particular cartridge, regardless of caliber.

ETA: The hate bashing on you gives me lulz.

[pinzgauer]

It is a free country, you can carry your 10mm and get eaten with 10 rounds left in your magazine. I'll continue to carry a stout .44 Magnum that I shoot very well.

Not advocating switching, and if you shoot your 44 well that's great. Hope it's handy when you need it. Just pointing out 44 mag's not a magic pill.

Pinzgauer I notice in your ramblings that you have first hand experience in energy with cartridges ! I venture you have no experience looking into the eyes of a charging bear! And if you do while holding a 10 mm I doubt you will do it again

No doubt. So tell us some stories, Sergeant Preston of the Yukon, about the charging 800 pounders you've stopped with your 44. Those of us who hail from the wilds of Skokie Illinois, Pittsburgh, and Miami would love to be enlightened.

Most likely, you and I both have exactly the same firsthand experience shooting at charging bears. (Zero)

I have been shooting, competing, and hunting with more powerful handguns than the 44 mag since the 80's. I won't pretend that's bear charging experience. But it'd also be a mistake to assume that practical experience with hitting animals in the wild and training to do so in competition has no benefit either.

I'm not going to get into a dick measuring contest on this, not worth the trouble. Nor would it convince you or me.

I enjoyed the breakdown provided. Sounds to me like you're not bashing any particular caliber, though I can see you're already receiving flak for that kind of "perspective", but more-so pointing out the false sense of security something like a .44 magnum would provide to an inexperienced shooter.

Zackly... notice there was no answer what's on the right number (energy). And that's because, there is not one, though there is probably some reasonable range. And an assumption bigger is better, assuming A) You can shoot it and B) You can get to it fast enough to achieve point A.

Carry a 10mm, you are dead. Carry a 44 and you are good to go. Carry a 460, and you are safe. Right... real world is not that simple!

False sense of security is the right term, I guess that's what I'm reacting to most. That and the blanket X won't work and Y will.

[mooosie]

What I'm trying to tell you is no pistol is right for the job! I have a grizzly rug from a bear I shot in AK and a black bear rug from one I shot in northern Ontario. I would have wanted to be on the ground with any pistol with either one . Makes no difference to me of you carry a 22 short if you survive a charging bear attack with any gun you are lucky because as you say you are short on time


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[pinzgauer]

What I'm trying to tell you is no pistol is right for the job! I have a grizzly rug from a bear I shot in AK and a black bear rug from one I shot in northern Ontario.

No worries, we are in agreement there. for sure. And congrats on your bearskins!

[mooosie]

Good hunting and I hope you don't run into any bears unexpectedly


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