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Thread: Loaded for Bear - Is 10mm Sufficient?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leuthas View Post
    There might be cause to suspend black bear from the discussion simply due to their typical size here on the west side of the US. I've seen countless black bear over time - I live in 'bear country' as it were - and used to hunt them as a kid. I've seen a bear first hand taken down with a few shots from a Glock 17 with unknown ammunition and granted he didn't drop, but he sure took a jolt and gave up several paces away from where he started. These are surprisingly small bears, skinny too, and I wonder if some of them even weigh more than myself.
    In PA our black bears are often 350+ with some giants being 700-800 pounds. IIRC, PA holds the record for biggest black bear.

    When I'm out backpacking I carry a G20 loaded with 180gr speer golddots, with my spare magazine of 200gr. WFNGC (at 1,250 fps). The golddots are for my primary threat (backcountry weed growers and meth "chemists").

    200 gr WFNGC will stop anything East of the Mississippi. In reality you are only going to get 1-3 shots, and I'm aiming for skull. My load will easily punch through a Grizzly and black bear skull. I also have a 454 Casull. It is a hand cannon but you should only expect to get 1 shot at a charging bear.


    For Colorado Elk hunting I carry my G20 with the 200gr. bullets in a chest rig, and my 300 RUM is easily accessible with my Kifaru Gun bearer.



    *in reality all studies show that Bear Spray is much more effective.

    *To all the G20 haters: there are a couple militaries/rangers in Artic regions that issue G20 pistols as sidearm against polar bears (not that I recommend that).

    For Me:

    Black bear: G20
    Grizzly: pepper spray/G20/454 Super Redhawk Alaskan
    Brown bear: Rifle/shotgun
    Polar Bear: laser guided JDAM.
    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    I find it a bit funny that against armed risks that "better shot placement and multiple followup shots" is the rule favoring 9mm against the clearly more powerful and effective 357 & 10mm. Yet against bears we are back to the "single powerful shot" concept.

    My read is the real world is far more complex than either scenario. I've seen enough folks with issues shooting .44 mag with relatively mild ammo, much less Heavy/+P stuff.

    I can shoot pretty fast with 10mm, certainly much faster than I can big bore revolvers. I can also get on target much faster with 10mm than I can with 6" large revolvers, though my initial accuracy with a 6" large frame revolver is pretty good once on target.

    It appears most folks are envisioning hunting type scenarios where the holster handling of a large frame revolver is not an issue. I'm not sure that's realistic, but I'm sure there will be all sorts of solutions raised.

    But the irony did jump out at me: If this is true for bears, then why not for 2 legged armed risks? (Granted, bears are tougher, but not shooting back)
    Because numerous studies have shown that 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP have nearly identical gelatin tests, energy deposits and wound patterns in the 120-200 lbs monkeys its used on. In Glacier National Park, last year the Grizzly that was shot at 10-15 feet with a .357 Magnum, after the bear spray also failed, got up and ran away and was never found dead. There are numerous, numerous cases of .44 magnum killing large Grizzly and Black bear. Penetrating a thin skinned human is much different than the hide, fat, muscle and bone of a 400-850 lbs Grizzly.

  3. #43
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    Awesome points Coal Dragger. I have argued the same ones with some buddies up here. The 1 or 2 crushing, penetrating injuries the larger calibers deliver are what you need to STOP the bear. For all of those "cranium shot" "t-zone the bear" guys, you should try this really good drill next time you are out at the range:

    I hear, "I will aim for the head" quite often. Here is a good drill to practice that maneuver (from Kodiakbeer on thehighroad): A bears brain is the size of a softball. Have somebody throw a softball at you, at 40 mph (sprint speed of Grizz) from 20 yards away, skipping along the ground the way a bears head moves when it's bounding. Draw your pistol and shoot.

    +1 if you hit the softball.
    -1 if you miss the softball.
    -10 if you shoot the guy who threw the softball.

    One shot from a 44 magnum. Grizzly charged and attacked two hunters while on a moose kill in Alaska. Gentleman shot this bear and dropped it right in front of himself after the bear left his partner in the deep grass. Nightmare scenario.
    Last edited by TacMedic556; 04-18-16 at 19:14.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacMedic556 View Post
    Because numerous studies have shown that 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP have nearly identical gelatin tests, energy deposits and wound patterns in the 120-200 lbs monkeys its used on. In Glacier National Park, last year the Grizzly that was shot at 10-15 feet with a .357 Magnum, after the bear spray also failed, got up and ran away and was never found dead. There are numerous, numerous cases of .44 magnum killing large Grizzly and Black bear. Penetrating a thin skinned human is much different than the hide, fat, muscle and bone of a 400-850 lbs Grizzly.
    But we all know shot placement counts, and one story of a 357 not dropping a Grizzly at 10-15 ft is about as useful as a story of 5.56 not dropping a person at 10-15 ft one time.

    It's not enough data points nor even enough detail on that one data point provided to draw any sort of meaningful conclusions on the efficacy of .357 mag.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 04-18-16 at 19:18.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  5. #45
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    I merely used that .357 documented case because of the resemblance in energy that .357 and 10mm share. Every guide, outfitter or experienced woodsman I have met here in Montana that has run into, killed or encountered Grizzly has repeated the same mantra, bigger is better, Marlin lever guns and shotguns are ideal, biggest pistol you can possibly handle is 2nd. I have only jumped one Grizzly ever, (I too try to make noise) and I have bumped many black bear. I have been around Grizzly in the parks several times and always kept distance. The issue is, from all documented encounters that did go south it appears that the bigger caliber firearms ended it swiftly. If I can choose 1200 ft. lbs. to 700 ft. lbs. I will take the 1200.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacMedic556 View Post
    Awesome points Coal Dragger. I have argued the same ones with some buddies up here. The 1 or 2 crushing, penetrating injuries the larger calibers deliver are what you need to STOP the bear. For all of those "cranium shot" "t-zone the bear" guys, you should try this really good drill next time you are out at the range:

    I hear, "I will aim for the head" quite often. Here is a good drill to practice that maneuver (from Kodiakbeer on thehighroad): A bears brain is the size of a softball. Have somebody throw a softball at you, at 40 mph (sprint speed of Grizz) from 20 yards away, skipping along the ground the way a bears head moves when it's bounding. Draw your pistol and shoot.

    +1 if you hit the softball.
    -1 if you miss the softball.
    -10 if you shoot the guy who threw the softball.

    One shot from a 44 magnum. Grizzly charged and attacked two hunters while on a moose kill in Alaska. Gentleman shot this bear and dropped it right in front of himself after the bear left his partner in the deep grass. Nightmare scenario.
    Where did he hit it?

    Did he practice the softball training?


    Nothing is a guarantee (454/44/357/10mm) is still a PISTOL cartridge. I'm going to carry the largest/rifle/shotgun/handgun that I'm proficient in and is sensible for the situation (I'm not carrying a 12 guage while backpacking the AT). I own a 454, but shoot my G20 more accurately and faster then the 2.5" hand cannon.

    ETA: For ME, 2 legged threats are much more real and more likely to happen in my AO. In Grizzly+ territory I would seriously consider a 14" SBS.
    Last edited by domestique; 04-18-16 at 19:29.
    "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacMedic556 View Post
    I merely used that .357 documented case because of the resemblance in energy that .357 and 10mm share. Every guide, outfitter or experienced woodsman I have met here in Montana that has run into, killed or encountered Grizzly has repeated the same mantra, bigger is better, Marlin lever guns and shotguns are ideal, biggest pistol you can possibly handle is 2nd. I have only jumped one Grizzly ever, (I too try to make noise) and I have bumped many black bear. I have been around Grizzly in the parks several times and always kept distance. The issue is, from all documented encounters that did go south it appears that the bigger caliber firearms ended it swiftly. If I can choose 1200 ft. lbs. to 700 ft. lbs. I will take the 1200.
    So since 5.56 has more or less the same energy as .44 magnum, is that a good caliber for stopping a charging grizzly?

    6.8 spc has a bit more, is that acceptable?
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #48
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    It sounds as if the best bear protection is knowledge and awareness. Sensible firearm choices would limit me to a slug loaded 12 gauge pump and a large caliber revolver. I would carry the revolver when the situation prevented having the shotgun. If I were in a canoe, I'd have both. The only bear I've ever seen was in a zoo.

  9. #49
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    As stated above, one hit. I will let Doug tell the story: https://thegreatwhitehunter.wordpres...g-bear-attack/




    I cannot carry a rifle in bear country when I bow hunt. It would be ridiculous and a waste of effort. My close friend and hunting compadre carries the S&W 460 and we both shoot it well. That pistol packs 2800+ ft. lbs. and has a nice muzzle brake that controls recoil well. I carry a 629 with the HSM 305 grain wide flat nose hard cast "Bear Load". Both of those guns are nice to have on a dark fall morning walking through the timber.

  10. #50
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    Koshin
    Having seen 5.56 and small rounds tumble and nearly disintegrate after hitting a door jam or even glass on a car, I would say no. A 55 or 62 grain bullet screaming at 3000 fps will disintegrate and lose most all of its energy upon impact. I see and hear your point, however the 305-440 grain pistol loads have a greater ability to continue as one unit, destroying tissue, vitals, bones, vessels and nerves. I wouldn't mind a souped up 6.8 load or 300BLK perhaps. As long as it was a big heavy solid bullet.

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