Legality of Vertical Forward Grip

[3176312]

Thank you all for the responses and information. I was glad to learn about pistol vs rifle vs what's legal and what's not.

Thank You!!

[XD40Colorado]

Legal in the USA.
Illegal in Chicago, DC, and Peoples Communist Republic of CA

[Outlander Systems]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons

[Rogue556]

Friendlyfireisnt is correct, with one caveat.
Barrel length on a pistol or firearm is irrelevant.
The presence, or lack of, a stock is the determining factor in pistols and firearms. If no stock, and under 26" oal, it's a pistol. If no stock, and 26" or more oal, it's a firearm.
On rifles, both the barrel and stock count, but to determine whether it is rifle, or a short barreled rifle.
Vfg is legal without registration on rifles, short barreled rifles, and firearms.
Telescoping or folding stocks are always opened or extended to their maximum length for measuring oal on a rifle.
Reaching a barrel length of 16", and an oal of 26" does not automatically make a rifle.

This is per federal regulations. State law may vary.
Here in VA, it follows federal regulation.

Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

So based on that info, if you were to build an AR pistol with an over all length of 26.1" or more (measured from the end of the receiver extension to the end of the barrel threads or muzzle device if pinned) you could legally attach a vertical grip to the weapon thus changing its definition from a "pistol" to a "firearm"?..

Only verifying because if this is true, and it does change the definition of the weapon and therfore is no longer a pistol, then technically one could use a stabilizing brace like an SB15 or similar on one of these guns (which is legal as it is) AND shoulder it (which is NOT legal on a "pistol"). Would that be true? The ATF letter states:

"Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol
(having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18
inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting
firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA."

The ATF letter says "pistol" and nothing else. So if it truly is no longer a pistol by law, does the ATF restriction for shouldering the brace affect weapons deemed as a "firearm" and not a "pistol"?

I don't own any AR pistols so this wouldn't affect me, but it would be good info to know that I hadn't seen discussed before.

Sorry for the thread derail.

[screwedby]

Regardless how you set it up there are many cops and game wardens that do not know the law.

I look it up on the ATF site and print it.
I then reduce it in size on my printer, along with my silencer and SBR stamps.

Folded compactly, it fits in my AR grip (With the storage compartment cap).

Hopefully, presenting the "evidence" will head off any uninformed LEO's.

If not, I'm retired, I have time on my hands - lock me up and don't forget to feed me. I don't mind waiting for a call back from the Feds.

I just want to be certain I get an apology when the phone call comes thru, not an invite to stay longer. Haha.

screwedbygoogle
original username modified by google

[Primus Pilum]

Non FED LE rarely enforce federal law unless the words terrorism or drug trafficking are involved, and even then there would be a task force made up of feds.

Your Local, County & State LEO's don't care about Federal Law for the most part. Most folks here know statutes better than your average cop who only deals with drug statutes.

Hell, the Federal LEO's I work with don't care about most Federal laws unless it pertains to their agency mission or specialties.

Just don't piss into the cheerios of your local ATF agents and you won't have to worry about defending the legality of your firearm. Most game wardens or NRP don't care and don't know.

You are more likely to be struck by lightning than having to defend the 922r status or AOW designation unless its part of a larger federal crime, and then that is by far the least of your worries.

[Flankenstein]

I bet Thomas Jefferson sat around thinking the same sort of things.

[3176312]

Just don't piss into the cheerios of your local ATF agents and you won't have to worry about defending the legality of your firearm.

Words to live by. I always say don't poke the bear.

In my past job, I was an auditor. Basically, me knocking somebody on something depends on how I was feeling that day. I've learned that if you just tell them to fix it-it makes everybody's life easier....unless you're an idiot and want to fight about it, then I'll write you up about it.

[Gunfixr]

So based on that info, if you were to build an AR pistol with an over all length of 26.1" or more (measured from the end of the receiver extension to the end of the barrel threads or muzzle device if pinned) you could legally attach a vertical grip to the weapon thus changing its definition from a "pistol" to a "firearm"?..

Only verifying because if this is true, and it does change the definition of the weapon and therfore is no longer a pistol, then technically one could use a stabilizing brace like an SB15 or similar on one of these guns (which is legal as it is) AND shoulder it (which is NOT legal on a "pistol"). Would that be true? The ATF letter states:

"Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol
(having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18
inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting
firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA."

The ATF letter says "pistol" and nothing else. So if it truly is no longer a pistol by law, does the ATF restriction for shouldering the brace affect weapons deemed as a "firearm" and not a "pistol"?

I don't own any AR pistols so this wouldn't affect me, but it would be good info to know that I hadn't seen discussed before.

Sorry for the thread derail.

Yes, that is correct.
However, even at 26" or more, and considered a "firearm", it becomes an aow if you are carrying it concealed.
It becomes an sbr if you have a stabilizing brace mounted, and are using it as a stock, as you noted.

There is/was a company advertising an AR pistol in shotgun news with a vfg on it. If you go to their website, you find that this is because it's over 26", and therefore a firearm. There is a copy of the atf letter of its legality on the site, and the letter also states the part about concealing it making it into an aow.

The only unclear part is whether such a weapon is automatically considered a firearm at 26" or not. As in, any AR pistol, even those without a vfg on them.
If so, if your AR pistol is over 26", and you conceal it, it still becomes an aow, whether or not it has a vfg.
IIRC, around the 11.5" or 12" barrel length, 26" is reached.

Went back and re-read your post.
I already covered this above, but using the brace as a stock would still make it an sbr. A firearm is still not a rifle. The ruling on the brace is saying that a stock has been added to a pistol by its use that way, and since it doesn't meet any of the length requirements, it's an sbr. Doing the same to a firearm would meet the 26" requirement, but not the 16" barrel requirement. It would still be an sbr.
However, since the letter only mentions pistols, and not firearms, technically, the letter does not apply. You would probably need either a sympathetic judge, or a better lawyer, so, step into that gray area at your own risk.
If you did get away with it, you'd be the only one, for the ruling would most certainly be amended.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

[Rogue556]

Yes, that is correct.
However, even at 26" or more, and considered a "firearm", it becomes an aow if you are carrying it concealed.
It becomes an sbr if you have a stabilizing brace mounted, and are using it as a stock, as you noted.

There is/was a company advertising an AR pistol in shotgun news with a vfg on it. If you go to their website, you find that this is because it's over 26", and therefore a firearm. There is a copy of the atf letter of its legality on the site, and the letter also states the part about concealing it making it into an aow.

The only unclear part is whether such a weapon is automatically considered a firearm at 26" or not. As in, any AR pistol, even those without a vfg on them.
If so, if your AR pistol is over 26", and you conceal it, it still becomes an aow, whether or not it has a vfg.
IIRC, around the 11.5" or 12" barrel length, 26" is reached.

Went back and re-read your post.
I already covered this above, but using the brace as a stock would still make it an sbr. A firearm is still not a rifle. The ruling on the brace is saying that a stock has been added to a pistol by its use that way, and since it doesn't meet any of the length requirements, it's an sbr. Doing the same to a firearm would meet the 26" requirement, but not the 16" barrel requirement. It would still be an sbr.
However, since the letter only mentions pistols, and not firearms, technically, the letter does not apply. You would probably need either a sympathetic judge, or a better lawyer, so, step into that gray area at your own risk.
If you did get away with it, you'd be the only one, for the ruling would most certainly be amended.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk

Thank you for the info, that's about what I figured. Definitely sounds like a gray area that would be safest not to test. Like you said, the second someone did it (If they weren't charged for it) that would surely be the first and last time. I'm sure the ATF letter would be rewritten in a hurry.