Why semi autos only became prevalent in the 80's

[skimbleshanks]

Just kind of curious as to why semi auto pistols only gained really wide spread usage with police and civilian populations after the 1980's? 1911 had a good track record as did the Browning hi-power. The Luger wasn't a slouch and the mix of Walther pistols has to my knowledge never been particularly terrible. I like my revolvers and I have shot them more and better than my semi auto pistols but the use of them is in my mind limited (or at a slight disadvantage) to woods carry with big predators or very small carry options like a j frame. Why did police choose to use revolvers so for so long for that particular role?

[one]

The 1911 and High power are single action and that's never been very popular with administrations. When the switch did begin it was largely to DA autos. Revolvers had a long and established history with US LE. The Luger was never a real option and the Walther pretty much wasn't either. The two US autos listed and the Smith and Wesson models a the time weren't always feed reliable with hollowpoints

Add to that the monetary cost to transition and train. The Sheriff's dept here could always carry autos. The PD in the city I live in couldn't carry autos until 1985. And then only DA or squeeze cocker (HKP7). But several 1911 fans on the PD purchased the old Double Ace, I think it was, conversion which converted the 1911 into a squeeze cocker via the blackstrap. They never worked reliably. I actually still have two of them that I pulled off pistols owned by former friends and replaced with standard 1911 components.

Now you can't find a revolver in front line service here. And the Kansas Law Enforcement academy won't even accept a revolver. It's all built around an auto pistol curriculum. And they'd like to see all Glock

[SteyrAUG]

Just kind of curious as to why semi auto pistols only gained really wide spread usage with police and civilian populations after the 1980's? 1911 had a good track record as did the Browning hi-power. The Luger wasn't a slouch and the mix of Walther pistols has to my knowledge never been particularly terrible. I like my revolvers and I have shot them more and better than my semi auto pistols but the use of them is in my mind limited (or at a slight disadvantage) to woods carry with big predators or very small carry options like a j frame. Why did police choose to use revolvers so for so long for that particular role?

Matter of perception. Nobody wanted Officer Friendly to look like GI Joe.

For civies Colt Commanders were pretty popular until the wonder 9s took over.

[Hmac]

My entries into this guessing game is:

• More reliable semi-automatic pistols and ammunition (less tendency to "jam").
• Better 9mm terminal ballistic performance
• Need (perceived or real) for higher capacity and faster reloading
• Better training
• Demonstration that with adequate training, semi-autos don't have to result in increased NDs
• Glock "safe-action" pistols with partial precocking (heavy, creepy, spongy double-action trigger = fewer NDs)
• Glocks - cheap and reliable with aggressive law enforcement agency marketing schemes
• Glocks - simple department armorer requirements, cheap to maintain and service locally

Probably, the short answer is "Glock".

[Arik]

My understanding is a lot had to do with what was happening in Miami Fl. When the cartels become center stage. They were having shootouts on the highways in traffic in broad day light. Assassinations in public places with SMGs. I remember hearing (on a show) one detective say that after they captured a small UHALL type truck full of automatic weapons he went out and swapped his 6 shot 38spl for a Browning Hipower

See if you can find a documentary called Cocane Cowboys


Then there was the famous FBI shootout.

I think that as criminals got better weapons the cops were forced to upgrade as well

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[MountainRaven]

Why did carbines only become prevalent in LE in the late-90s and early-00s?

I think it's worth bearing in mind that, in most of Europe, the semi-automatic handgun has been the sidearm of choice for police since the middle of the 1930s. It was not uncommon for European police to carry submachine guns - sometimes select-fire, sometimes semi-auto-only - starting in the 1950s and 1960s.

So why did American police favor revolvers until the 80s and shotguns into the late-00s?

I'll tell you why.

Tradition!

American police officers had carried revolvers and shotguns since the late-19th Century and for most of the 20th Century - with a noticeable period from about 1920 to about 1933 where this wasn't entirely the norm - and these weapons were more than adequate for 99% of police duties. Even with the terrorism of the 1970s, the average cop was still adequately armed with revolver and maybe a shotgun, although the 1% of the time where they were insufficient saw the creation of SWAT.

I don't think the FBI shootout in Miami changed much WRT carrying revolvers versus automatics - after all, some of the agents present did bring autos and it was the superior power of the shotguns the agents had (and the massive, wrought-iron testicles carried about by at least one agent) that enabled them to prevail, not the presence or absence of automatic pistols. In fact, for many police agencies, the FBI shootout in Miami probably only proved to them that the 9mm automatic was insufficient for police work and that the 357 Magnum in a wheelgun was the way to go (and they probably didn't see the one extra round the 1911 carried to be generally worth the blow to reliability of going to a 1911 instead of, say, a 586). Obviously, the FBI took away different lessons, thus the S&W 1076 and the 10mm Auto cartridge were born, and the FBI's R&D with the 10mm and the 40 S&W paved much of the way that police forces would choose to arm themselves.

Nevertheless, I think it was ultimately the desire of police grunts - against the desires of police brass - for the higher capacity, faster reloading semi-automatic handgun that saw them rise to primacy over the revolver. While it is a certainty that the war on drugs helped to pressure police brass to adopt autos, I find it hard to believe that it was the key event, chiefly because a police officer armed with a six-shot 38 Special or 357 revolver is not actually that underarmed against a goblin with an automatic (in such a situation, the officer's mindset and skills are far more important than the equipment or disparity of equipment), a police officer with an automatic is still underarmed against multiple goblins with automatics or revolvers, and a police officer armed with an automatic is not really that much less underarmed with an automatic than with a revolver when facing goblins armed with AKs, Uzis, and MACs.

If the desire had been to reach parity of firepower, or overmatch, with cartel goblins then I think we would have seen patrol officers armed with subguns or carbines as a primary weapon in the 1980s, with their wheelguns continuing to soldier on as sidearms, rather than see the wheelguns get supplemented and eventually replaced by automatics. (It would be interesting to see how weapon light development might have occurred differently if the revolver were still the primary handgun of American law enforcement.)

[Mr. Greene]

Agree, with the point of view that the training of reteaching was a point of consideration and the long tradition of wheel guns was another but the main reason I thought was there was not a reliable auto in mass numbers or enough competition to drive the market until the wonder 9 explosion in the 80's. The S&W 59/39 series was about the only choice until the beretta, Sig, and Glock were up and running. I do miss the wheel guns, I had a blast during my instructor course for my agency when we had the revolver segment, it was a shame to see a lot of guys not knowing how to run them. Don't get me wrong I love my autos but I wish Smith still made R revolvers the old way, no lock better finish etc.

[L-2]

I agree with all the points I've read on the above posts as to how Law Enforcement (LE) transitioned from revolvers to mainly semi-autos.
One other thing briefly touched upon but not specifically identified was also the transition from round-nose bullets/ammo to jacketed hollow point (jhp) type with the wadcutter-type variations in there, too.

As the JHP was gaining popularity, as already mentioned, the semi-autos were not deemed reliable enough with the various makes of JHP ammo. In the last 10 years (around 2007), I even recall one local department finally OK jhp ammo if the officer was carrying a 1911. Prior to that, the officer had to carry FMJ, possibly lead round nose, ammo. I believe the 1911-carrying officers had to convince the Chief their 1911s could reliably feed JHP ammo. Sometimes management and the LE industry can move very slowly.

As a very old memory, I do recall seeing one local retired police officer carrying a 1911 around 1960, and remember thinking it was unusual with the hammer already cocked back. From movies and television (black & white, only at the time), I did know just a little bit about guns. He was already retired, but still in uniform working as a crossing guard as I walked to elementary school.

[pinzgauer]

Mid to Late 70s:

- 9mm performance was much worse than 357, and possible even 38s

- your options were: Colt 1911 (expensive), Browning High Power (expensive and 9mm), and later, the SW 39 & 59, which were not great, and still just 9mm. Walthers and sigs were rare. Sigs first surfaced as BDA's and were pricey. And that was probably more like the early 80s to see them in stores.

- unlike now, revolvers were typically less expensive than same quality autos. Just a fraction of the aftermarket support there is now for 1911, and almost none for the BHP and Smiths.

Just a different landscape entirely

[jyo]

I grew up with revolvers (still have several)---they were heavy and with limited capacities but handled powerful ammo. Autos on the other hand, were also mostly heavy steel and 9mm was just not America's cup of tea. Two things happened---much improved 9mm JHP ammo and much improved reliability. I spent many, many years in the retail/wholesale business---during this time, I carried a Browning Hi Power (still own it)---then the Glock 17 appeared---I, personally, didn't care for it, but it WORKED most all the time---something that definitely could not be said of early autos. Now with improved ammo and lighter weight poly-pistols, we have arrived at a happy place with lots of choices (I fine myself with several HK pistols) and the semi-auto pistol is now king...