Long range shooting and "accuracy" getting better with distance?

[Eurodriver]

Not sure if this is the correct place for this, but...

I frequently go to a 1000yd range. Lots of Fudds out there. Most are complete idiots. They setup their $600 .308 AR topped off with an NC Star optic and go "Never been here before, but that 1000yd gong gonna ring!" and end up having to move to the 75yd berm after firing dozens of rounds with no idea as to the whereabouts of their impacts. I want to be clear that this is not the type of person I am speaking about.

The other group are seasoned long distance shooters. Think $6,000 BR guys that have $1,000 radar units to measuring bullet velocities over the span of 150 yards shooting at 10" gongs at 1000 yards in 15mph full value gusts. Guys that are in their 60s and regularly compete in 1000 yard competition, and have been staring behind a rifle scope for the better part of half a decade. Most are educated professionals and generally keep to themselves.

On many, many occasions I have heard these folks talk about certain calibers/bullets/loads being increasingly accurate the further you shoot it.

They say that while most precision shooting is in terms of angular measurements (i.e. the MOA circle gets wider the farther you go) there are also linear measurements and a bullet's effect on the harmonics of the bore can affect the way a round travels linearly. Essentially, if you have a rifle that you fire a 1" group at 100 yards with, it could theoretically shoot a 2" group at 300 yards, or a 3" group at 500 yards. These group sizes are both smaller than the 100 yard group in relation to the distance fired whereas a normal rifle would generally fire MOA groups similar in size to what it is at 100 - normally increasing slightly due to the effects of wind and velocity deviations.

Has anyone heard anything like this? I am just having trouble wrapping my head around it, as logically thinking it out would say if you have rounds impacting 1" apart at 100 yards, if you twice that distance it is going to have to be at least 2" apart. This, to me, simply seems like a mathematical certainty.



To be clear, they are not talking about the following scenario:
Rifle A Shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards, 2 MOA at 300 yards and 3 MOA at 600 yards.
Rifle B Shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, 1 MOA at 300 yards, and 5 MOA at 600 yards.

Obviously, Rifle A "gets more accurate" than Rifle B the further you go out. That is a separate issue.

I hope my post makes sense.

[Kansaswoodguy]

I've heard of it and experienced it. I do not however agree with the conclusion that the bullets become more accurate with distance. I think it's more likely that it's a mental thing. I have no hard data to back up my conclusion. What I think is going on is we the human element are much more focused when shooting at longer ranges than we are at shorter ranges. Just my 2 cents

[Leaveammoforme]

I've always heard it as "Going to sleep", as in when the projectile works its own wobble out.

Imagine throwing a football that isn't a perfect spiral in the beginning of its flight but then it becomes a spiral on its own.

Different calibers "Go to sleep" at different ranges. I believe most calibers go to sleep before a 100 yards which is why you don't hear about this effect very often.

I know for a fact my 338L goes to sleep somewhere between 100 and 200 yards. I can put tighter groups on a 200 yard target than I can a 100 yard target.

[masan]

Going to sleep is correct. Minimal to no yaw/wobble/wiggle timey wimey BS.

Short range Benchrest shooters want their bullets to "go to sleep" as close to the muzzle as possible. This generally means flat based hand swaged custom bullets.

Long range shooters prefer boat tailed bullets to get that same stability at greater range to minimize wind drift and velocity loss from yaw as the bullet slows.

Talk to some F class competitors, they don't sweat it when their rifle only shoots .5 MOa at 100, beacuse the load performs best at 1000.

Try taking that same .5 MOA rifle/load to a Short Range IBS match, and you will be so far down the score sheet you may as well take up golf

Then take a Short Range IBS rifle/load that can shoot teen aggs for 25 shot Group matches or 250-20X(+) score matches to a 1000 yard match, realize it cannot possibly keep up, go home, and cry.

Then put a 1000 BR rifle up against a 1000 yard F Class rifle... There is a reason the BR targets are smaller.

That said, this is all dependent upon the shooting platform.


TLDR: Yup, it is real, has a lot to do with the cartridge/load. Only really going to show up in tuned custom competition rifles.

edit: Need to add that this is also extremely dependent on the bag/rest setup. Free recoil shooting, front rest and bags that track straight back. Always going to be harder to shoot from the prone than off of a solid concrete bench.

[wilson1911]

I believe this is why some people run gain twist barrels. It helps the bullet stabilize faster. An added effect sometimes is an increase in speed also.

Shooting long range is more about being able to read the wind more than anything.

As far as accuracy is concerned, I run an OCW test to find the node, then use a MS to find my lowest sd within the node I am tuning. This makes a consistent elevation load.

[Eurodriver]

I'll be damned. I honestly thought the old guys were just crazy old guys.

Going to sleep would certainly explain things perfectly, however.

[T2C]

masan hit the high points.

I only have one long range rifle (700+ yards) in the stable, which is chambered in .308 Winchester and set up to shoot F-TR class. Factory 175g Match ammunition shoots 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards and easily shoots sub 2" groups at 300 yards. 500 yard groups under 5" are possible under good conditions. I don't have a paper 1,000 yard target on hand, so I won't comment on group size at that distance.

When I was learning the intricacies of shooting precisely past 600 meters, one of the people I trust told me the 175g Match bullet takes some time to "go to sleep" after it exits the muzzle and that my 100 yard groups were not a good indicator of how the projectile will perform at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards. What he told me rings true.

[markm]

I'll be damned. I honestly thought the old guys were just crazy old guys.

Going to sleep would certainly explain things perfectly, however.

Yep. When we were foolish enough to mess with VLDs, we'd have to shoot groups at 200 yards or more to let the bullet go to sleep.

[Molon]

Going to sleep is correct.

Bryan Litz says otherwise and he has publicly offered to pay the plane-fare for anyone willing to travel to his shooting range and prove that to be true. So far, not one single person has taken him up on his offer. So here's here your chance to prove him wrong.



The first target pictured below shows a measured 5-shot group that was fired by Bryan Litz at a distance of 100 yards on his “shoot thru” target set-up. The group has an extreme spread of 2.46 MOA.











The next target shows the impact at 300 yards of the exact same 5 shots that were fired at the 100 yard target. The extreme spread for the resulting 5-shot group at 300 yards is 2.49 MOA.









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William C. Davis has reported on tests conducted at Frankford Arsenal on this subject matter also. Using machine-rested, bolt-actioned, heavy test-barrels, one such test that was conducted on an indoor-range involved firing EIGHTEEN 10-SHOT GROUPS on targets at 100 yards and 300 yards. The average extreme spread for the groups at 300 yards was 3 times as large as the average extreme spread of the groups at 100 yards.



.....



In another test that was conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground using .30 caliber match-grade ammunition, thirteen 10-shot groups were fired simultaneously through paper screens at different distances. The mean radius for the groups at 300 yards was 1.0”. The mean radius at 600 yards was 2.1”.



....

[T2C]

Bryan Litz is definitely someone to listen to when talking about ballistics and it would be great to talk with him in person about bullet weights, profiles, neck tension, etc.

I was told by other F Class shooters that some bullets settle down soon after leaving the muzzle and some take some distance to settle down. I was told the same thing by a Bench Rest shooter I respect. I was also told it did not apply to all bullet weights and profiles. I track every shot fired out of my rifle and what the other F class shooters told me appeared to be true. The 168 BTHP shoots tighter groups than the 175g BTHP out to 200 yards in my rifle and at 300 yards groups are dead even. The 175g BTHP seems to perform better than the 168g BTHP past 800 yards. The 155 Scenars group well at 100 yards and 600 yards with similar MOA measurements.


What bullet weights and profiles were used for the tests Molon? 155g Scenars? 168g BTHP? 175g BTHP?