Any new 41F info/consensus regarding non-RP trustees or the 2yr grace period?

[VelveteenMole]

So that would be for anything filed after July 13?
Hypothetically speaking, if I added a beneficiary or trustee today, what would I need to do to file in the future?

If you change anything since your last application, or you've never applied for a stamp before, the next time you apply for a stamp you'll have to resubmit the updated trust. If your trust hasn't changed since your last application, I'm not sure if you have to resubmit it for your first application after July 13 if it's within 2 years of the last submission. Answered above.

[Ryno12]

Whenever you file a form, you submit the current version of the trust.

If you add a beneficiary today, and submit a form tomorrow, you would submit latest version of the trust.

If no changes have been made in the last 2 years, and you submitted the form after July 13th, then according to the atf's interpretation of its ruling, you would not have to submit a copy of the trust

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If you change anything since your last application, or you've never applied for a stamp before, the next time you apply for a stamp you'll have to resubmit the updated trust. If your trust hasn't changed since your last application, I'm not sure if you have to resubmit it for your first application after July 13 if it's within 2 years of the last submission. Answered above.

Ok, I think I'm following now. Just to clarify...

Either way, if I make a change to the trust today, the next time I file, whether it be before or after July 13, I'll have to attach the latest version of my trust. Correct?
Only if it hasn't changed in the last two years & I file after July 13, then I don't need to submit a copy of my trust. Correct?

[BigWaylon]

Ok, I think I'm following now. Just to clarify...

Either way, if I make a change to the trust today, the next time I file, whether it be before or after July 13, I'll have to attach the latest version of my trust. Correct?
Only if it hasn't changed in the last two years & I file after July 13, then I don't need to submit a copy of my trust. Correct?

That's how it seems to be written. The 24-month exemption is only on the draft copies of the F1 & F4, which won't be used until 7/13.

You'll have to file it every time between now and then, and at least once if your next one isn't until 41F is in effect.

[Sensei]

In currently on month 11 of a NFA binge due to this rule. That is because I plan to take a 1 year sabbatical from NFA purchases once it goes into effect. Simply put, I do not trust the NFA branch personnel to make this transition with consistency and grace. I'm expecting several months of delays, confusion, and general anarchy in WV until early next year. So, I'm submitting some Form 1's next weekend on a new Z5RS and CZ Scorpion. After that, it's a waiting game for all of my Forms 1s and 4s to clear. Someone else gets to be Uncle Sam's guinea pig on this one.

[Ryno12]

That's how it seems to be written. The 24-month exemption is only on the draft copies of the F1 & F4, which won't be used until 7/13.

You'll have to file it every time between now and then, and at least once if your next one isn't until 41F is in effect.

Cool, thanks.

[Displaced_Texan]

In currently on month 11 of a NFA binge due to this rule. That is because I plan to take a 1 year sabbatical from NFA purchases once it goes into effect. Simply put, I do not trust the NFA branch personnel to make this transition with consistency and grace. I'm expecting several months of delays, confusion, and general anarchy in WV until early next year. So, I'm submitting some Form 1's next weekend on a new Z5RS and CZ Scorpion. After that, it's a waiting game for all of my Forms 1s and 4s to clear. Someone else gets to be Uncle Sam's guinea pig on this one.

I'm in the same boat.

I have one suppressor now, 3 more in the pipeline and 3 SBR's e-filed as well. I wanted to buy two more suppressors but it would have been just to buy, not because I wanted those particular suppressors. My wife is listed as a co-trustee and is cool with the photo's and prints if it comes to that. Just waiting for the dust to settle and see what kind of a cluster it turns out to be.

Sucks that this is happening on an election year too. I'm starting to stock up, only a couple more months before the panic buying starts...

[Conrad101st]

So, assuming that you are going to have to submit prints and photos each time after the policy goes active in July, why not just create a new trust for each purchase. For example:

Ted Bundy Revocable Trust "A" dated 1/1/2016;
Ted Bundy Revocable Trust "B" dated 1/1/2017;
Ted Bundy Revocable Trust "C" dated 1/1/2018;
Ted Bundy Revocable Trust "D" dated 1/1/2019;
Etc.

It takes no time to change the "alphabet and date" designators, and then execute a new one. Put the new item(s) on the property exhibit, burn a PDF of the new trust and ship it off with the photos and prints each time.

After the Form 4 comes back, Ted Bundy amends each trust to now include all the co-trustees he wanted in the first place.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming the trust has a provision to amend, to amend simply takes a signature of the trustor and a notary. It's stapled to the trust and there is no regulatory body to even file it with.

This sounds much simpler than collecting multiple sets of prints and photos from trustees spread out all over the country, every time you want to add to the inventory. Here you only need the original trust creator to jump through the hoops.

[Eurodriver]

Personally i think i'm gonna wait a while after 13 July before I even think about any more NFA items. I want to see how things really shake out when the rubber hits the road. Course with 5 suppressors and 3 SBRs I'm probably done till I'm ready to dive into FA or DDs....

This is where I'm at.

Why weren't all you guys buying NFA toys 5 years ago? I haven't bought a single can due to this rule, because I already have more cans than guns and half my AR15s are SBRs.

[nova3930]

This is where I'm at.

Why weren't all you guys buying NFA toys 5 years ago? I haven't bought a single can due to this rule, because I already have more cans than guns and half my AR15s are SBRs.

I've filed 4 about to be 5 sets of paperwork recently, but it was stuff I planned to do anyway, I just pushed up the time line a couple months.

#5 was unplanned. I lucked up on a cz scorpion for a good price yesterday so it's getting a stamp.

In the same vein I've been accumulating mags and ammo before the election hits. If there's a panic I can just sit and wait it out. If there's not, we'll it don't go bad and the stuffs not getting any cheaper

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[VelveteenMole]

Have you heard or seen any outcomes involving "test runs" of this "Limited Trustee" concept to avoid classification as a Responsible Person while retaining ability to possess and transport NFA items? Regarding Successor Trusties/Beneficiaries vis a vis not having current management authority, same question?

ETA: On submission of prints and photos: Last guidance from ATF was that they didn't care what they wrote in the rule, they were requiring prints and photos for ALL RPs EVERY time a form is submitted.

Limited Trustees: I believe the answer is that a trustee may be limited in scope as to not meet the definition of responsible persons:

Responsible person.

In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation,

any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.

In the case of a trust,
those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include
any person
who has the capability to exercise such power
and
possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust. Examples of who may be considered a responsible person include settlors/grantors, trustees, partners, members, officers, directors, board members, or owners. An example of who may be excluded from this definition of responsible person is the beneficiary of a trust, if the beneficiary does not have the capability to exercise the powers or authorities enumerated in this section.v

1. In the case of a trust,
2. persons with the power to direct/manage
3. Capability to exercise that power
4. AND
5. POSSESSES the power to receive, posses, etc.

Therefore, it is a two pronged test for a trust. The trustee must meet both prongs of the test to be an RP.