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Thread: Have you ever been asked to provide proof?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMW89 View Post
    Why you gotta be a snitch? lol
    But really, how is it a problem for a gun range? I get its illegal. I guess if I was running the place I wouldn't be concerned about it. If they come in saying they've got this full auto something something that would be different.

    What's a couple inches between friends?
    Well, since the staff heard it, they know someone was doing something/had something illegal. Businesses ussually don't allow that.

  2. #92
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    I'm laughing at all the bad ass dudes in this thread that write, "I ain't showing my paperwork to no one but the ATF cuz the cops can't do shit." As a retired police Lieutenant I can affirm that the cops CAN do shit to you. The criminal justice system and ATF agents will always err on the side of the police and you will still plead guilty to at least misdemeanor Obstruction of Justice because you refused to PROVIDE documentation for your SBR, suppressor, etc. So be a bad ass if you must but I can guarantee you that you will be arrested, especially if the "I ain't gotta show you shit" attitude comes out. Do what you want but I for one carry copies of my stamps with the related items to avoid trouble. If they want to seize my stuff after that then I am happy to sue the involved department.

    I've never been asked to show my stamp with any of my NFA items. To me, it's kinda like getting carded at 46 to buy beer, I'm flattered that someone asked. I worked damn hard to get that stamp and if someone wants to see it, I'm flattered. It also starts conversations with people about NFA items and how the system works.

  3. #93
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    You do indeed have a point. Since I work for a large training company I can't afford to have my name in the news as a potential gun infraction. I asked my attorney about it all and he said the best thing I can do is carry my paperwork, comply with the request then sue the department afterwards for going outside of their authority. My attorney's especially mentioned that they needed a warrant to inspect the gun so make sure it is encased and ask for the warrant if they ask to see it after I have given the paperwork over. I am not expert and of course everyone use their own attorney for their advice. Im just relaying what mine told me.

    Quote Originally Posted by st381183 View Post
    I'm laughing at all the bad ass dudes in this thread that write, "I ain't showing my paperwork to no one but the ATF cuz the cops can't do shit." As a retired police Lieutenant I can affirm that the cops CAN do shit to you. The criminal justice system and ATF agents will always err on the side of the police and you will still plead guilty to at least misdemeanor Obstruction of Justice because you refused to PROVIDE documentation for your SBR, suppressor, etc. So be a bad ass if you must but I can guarantee you that you will be arrested, especially if the "I ain't gotta show you shit" attitude comes out. Do what you want but I for one carry copies of my stamps with the related items to avoid trouble. If they want to seize my stuff after that then I am happy to sue the involved department.

    I've never been asked to show my stamp with any of my NFA items. To me, it's kinda like getting carded at 46 to buy beer, I'm flattered that someone asked. I worked damn hard to get that stamp and if someone wants to see it, I'm flattered. It also starts conversations with people about NFA items and how the system works.
    NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
    NRA Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse to Be a Victim and Personal Protection in the Home
    Full time instructor for Florida Firearms Training
    21 years as USAF Combat Arms Instructor and First Sergeant

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Well, since the staff heard it, they know someone was doing something/had something illegal. Businesses ussually don't allow that.
    Right. But why do they need to be asked by anyone?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by st381183 View Post
    The criminal justice system and ATF agents will always err on the side of the police and you will still plead guilty to at least misdemeanor Obstruction of Justice because you refused to PROVIDE documentation for your SBR, suppressor, etc. So be a bad ass if you must but I can guarantee you that you will be arrested, especially if the "I ain't gotta show you shit" attitude comes out.
    That's why you don't carry 'em. I'd sure like to give it to you officer but it's locked up securely in the safe at home. Can't give you what I don't have. And if its ATF, I guaran-damn-tee they can make one phone call and have someone look at the NFTR if they want to verify my info. Between that and my ID they've got all they need. At the end of the day, those little BS copies people carry around, can be faked in about 10 minutes by someone half decent at photoshop. They're worthless for anyone to look at if they're not verifying against the NFTR.

    If the police want to arrest you, you're getting cuffed and stuffed, doesn't matter what paperwork you have on hand. Best way to avoid it is to not be a moron to attract their attention and don't be a dick if you do.
    Last edited by nova3930; 09-09-16 at 13:17.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMW89 View Post
    Right. But why do they need to be asked by anyone?
    People ask questions, that's just how the world works.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    People ask questions, that's just how the world works.
    I guess I just think that you should be able to have an SBR without gov't permission, so I'm bothered by this whole thing

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by amac View Post
    I'm not suggesting you take the risk and shoot an illegal, unapproved NFA item, but for the ones you have stamps for, have you ever been asked to show proof? I'm also wondering, who / which law enforcement officer has the right to request proof of an official NFA tax stamp?

    Personally, I've never been asked.

    Curious George wants know. Thanks.
    Nope. Never. Not once. In fact I was attending an armorer's course full of LEO guys and had one of my SBRs with me. Although I was fully prepared to provide a copy of my stamp, no one even bothered to ask or seemed even remotely interested in whether or not it was a legal SBR or not. Granted I was full-time active duty Army at the time and the SBR did have the proper engravings, they might have just assumed that I was GTG. As far as some random dick wanting to see my paperwork at any indoor or outdoor ranges I've been to? Never happens. And for the record, I wouldn't have a problem with it if asked.
    Last edited by Boba Fett v2; 09-09-16 at 16:41. Reason: added more for context
    "People have always been stupid. The Internet just makes it easier for us to know about them." - donlapalma

  9. #99
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    Im a police officer and attorney (and nfa owner/enthusiast), so I feel pretty squared away on the subject, but didn't know exactly how it would play out if an officer stops someone (hypothetically a traffic stop or one of those open carry goofs in Starbucks/etc) and interacts with the atf, And when my brain needs to know an answer, I cant let it go.

    I called the nfa and was told to email, I then emailed the nfa branch of the atf and was told there was no 24 hour number and directed me to my local branch. Then I spoke with a retired local agent I know from shooting, and a current newer agent (interestingly both really solid, gun owner/enthusiasts, and not at all interested in jacking up normal gun owners over smaller issues, both get a thumbs up). They also both seemed well informed.

    Of note, they both emphasized the protected nature of the tax information and it is not something a local officer can access or even get an answer or confirmation concerning it, and possible repercussions for an atf agent or local LEO that did distribute it. I did gather that an officer trying to check may get a sense of whether the atf had any interest in the subject but they can not verify whether the person or item is lawful.

    My conclusion from the conversation, the easy solution is to seize the weapon until they can provide authorization but arrest under a state statute would be a possible option. In the event of an arrest, or the report being sent to the prosecutor for review of possible charging, the atf would then comply with the court order and release the tax stamp information. But its pretty murky, not at all a simple process involving the communication with atf for an answer.

    I will continue to carry a copy, and have access to verification on my phone.

    My marijuana example with overlapping state/federal charges was confirmed, plus the LEOSA and ccw hypos.

    * like any question, legal, law enforcement or otherwise, I realize its possible someone else may get a different response

  10. #100
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    Related thought,

    Thats why I would recommend caution with all the recent attorneys that just took the few hour seminar, bought the software, and have been marketing themselves as "gun trust attorneys", it's like someone taking a two hour class, buying turbo tax, and opening shop as a tax preparation specialist. Of those I've seen online, active in Facebook groups etc, they all have been clueless and state many things that are obviously wrong.

    The very sharp, experienced estate planning attorney I work under was one of the first to take that seminar, but he decided he wasn't experienced enough to deal with a 2am call from a client being detained by police. Apparently that doesn't stop all these other new guys

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