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Thread: Have you ever been asked to provide proof?

  1. #81
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    I'm also discussing, not internet arguing, but I disagree. In AZ, or any similar state that has its own prohibited weapons, any state cop could arrest someone seen violating it.

    You are presumed guilty for being in possession of an item that is prohibited by law.

    Do you believe that all such state statutes are meaningless and when a local cop questions you about your sbr that is normally illegal under state law you are able to refuse just because there is an overlapping federal law (with exemptions)?

    That would appear to be the same thing as telling a local cop they cannot detain you for possessing drugs that are illegal under state law because there are overlapping federal laws. *and federal exemptions.

    Would you tell a cop that you are authorized under federal law to possess marijuana and consequently they should just take your word for it and the state law is meaningless?

    Federal supremacy laws are not an either or issue

  2. #82
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    What about LEOSA? If you are allowed under federal law to carry a gun while traveling in California, do you believe they could not detain you and demand proof that you are exempt from their state law?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by JG007 View Post
    What about LEOSA? If you are allowed under federal law to carry a gun while traveling in California, do you believe they could not detain you and demand proof that you are exempt from their state law?
    I haven't reread LEOSA recently, but I remember something being in there specifically stating LEOSA does not apply to NFA items.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by JG007 View Post
    I'm also discussing, not internet arguing, but I disagree. In AZ, or any similar state that has its own prohibited weapons, any state cop could arrest someone seen violating it.

    You are presumed guilty for being in possession of an item that is prohibited by law.

    Do you believe that all such state statutes are meaningless and when a local cop questions you about your sbr that is normally illegal under state law you are able to refuse just because there is an overlapping federal law (with exemptions)?

    That would appear to be the same thing as telling a local cop they cannot detain you for possessing drugs that are illegal under state law because there are overlapping federal laws. *and federal exemptions.

    Would you tell a cop that you are authorized under federal law to possess marijuana and consequently they should just take your word for it and the state law is meaningless?

    Federal supremacy laws are not an either or issue
    Here's the deal: the second you relay to that LEO that you have what is tantamount to federal permission to possess that thing, they have a fiduciary duty to check with the regulating agency IF they are going to investigate that item under a state statute violation.

    As soon as i say i have a tax stamp, their investigation stops and they must then check with the ATF to verify. Lest they violate your rights and get sued.

    Local and state LEOs further lack ANY training to verify the veracity or authenticity of an ATF tax stamp, ESPECIALLY a digital document. They, substantively, lack any ability to verify the document. So any enforcement which they perceive they are undertaking is false and easily dismissed in court.

    This is the type of behavior that gets LEOs and agencies sued.
    "That thing looks about as enjoyable as a bowl of exploding dicks." - Magic_Salad0892

    "The body cannot go where the mind has not already been."

  5. #85
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    Under that rational you would just tell a cop that questions you about your visible weapon, in a state where they are prohibited, that you are exempt and expect them to take your word for it. I can't think of any example where 'take my word for it' would be acceptable.


    The only hypothetical situation where that would be accurate is if a state didn't have its own laws. In that case you would be correct that state police could not investigate a violation that is federal only.


    But if it's a state law you are either showing evidence that you are exempt products you are getting arrested on the state charge.

  6. #86
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    Regarding the question as to what LEOSA allows, machine guns and suppressors are prohibited, but interestingly, a sbr was protected (regardless of their department/etc)

    http://m.policemag.com/article/2623/...w-apply-to-you

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by JG007 View Post
    Under that rational you would just tell a cop that questions you about your visible weapon, in a state where they are prohibited, that you are exempt and expect them to take your word for it. I can't think of any example where 'take my word for it' would be acceptable.


    The only hypothetical situation where that would be accurate is if a state didn't have its own laws. In that case you would be correct that state police could not investigate a violation that is federal only.


    But if it's a state law you are either showing evidence that you are exempt products you are getting arrested on the state charge.
    You're missing the point. They don't get to presume your guilt.

    Besides, this is existential and devoid of context. A cop cannot simply detain you at a range on private property and, further, they are not constitutionally permitted to presume that your NFA Item is not legally obtained once you assert that it is.

    I have an NRA rec'd attorney I'd call if that happened.
    Last edited by BufordTJustice; 09-08-16 at 22:00.
    "That thing looks about as enjoyable as a bowl of exploding dicks." - Magic_Salad0892

    "The body cannot go where the mind has not already been."

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by JG007 View Post
    Under that rational you would just tell a cop that questions you about your visible weapon, in a state where they are prohibited, that you are exempt and expect them to take your word for it. I can't think of any example where 'take my word for it' would be acceptable.


    The only hypothetical situation where that would be accurate is if a state didn't have its own laws. In that case you would be correct that state police could not investigate a violation that is federal only.


    But if it's a state law you are either showing evidence that you are exempt products you are getting arrested on the state charge.
    They wouldn't take your word, they would/should verify with ATF.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    They wouldn't take your word, they would/should verify with ATF.
    Correct, but there is an enormous, cavernous difference between conducting an ongoing investigation of a believed-to-be-criminal offense, and conducting and adminstrative verification of a tax stamp via the ATF.
    "That thing looks about as enjoyable as a bowl of exploding dicks." - Magic_Salad0892

    "The body cannot go where the mind has not already been."

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by bighawk View Post
    I think my range safety officers asking if you have them is kind of a cover their ass thing.

    From talking to the guys who work there it sounded like they had some trouble in the past with people coming out with unregistered SBR's one of which I was present for.

    Old dude comes out with a DPMS carbine says he bought it yesterday from the gun store so hes here to break it in.

    Then when taking all his stuff out of the case he pulls out a 10" 300 blackout upper.
    I ask him if he has a tax stamp for an SBR (knowing he doesn't).
    He looks at me confused and says "a tax stamp?! I don't need one of those, that's an infringement on my 2A rights." He was asked to leave immediately by the RSO who overheard the whole conversation.
    Why you gotta be a snitch? lol
    But really, how is it a problem for a gun range? I get its illegal. I guess if I was running the place I wouldn't be concerned about it. If they come in saying they've got this full auto something something that would be different.

    What's a couple inches between friends?

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