Shooting under cars

[markm]

Did anyone train to shoot under cars prior the North Hollywood shoot out? If not, there's your answer.

That was the example that immediately came to mind.

[strambo]

I really like the urban prone position with my feet on the wheel (cover) shooting under the car. I'm pretty fast into and out of positions though and see the gunfight as dynamic, so I would only drop into it for a few shots, then move/change levels-position.

[Hmac]

Here's the video of the Dave Spaulding course that we did up here recently. It was very, very interesting. Dave is a great guy and a great teacher and the course hosts, Dave and Mike, did a great job of setting it up. I learned a lot that I'd never thought of before. I agree with the point that in today's world, the most likely armed self-defense encounters are likely to happen in and around vehicles.

[noslorob]

There is a practical application to some of it. That said you really need to think about several things like angles and distance... None of the unorthodox positions that are slow to get out of, be it Brokeback prone, rollover prone, or whatever terminology you use for shooting under a vehicle, are good tactics if your threat is close and closing distance. Those are techniques that CAN be used if you are taking fire from a distance of say 25 yards or farther. If your threat is in an elevated position they simply don't work unless your using a 4X4 or vehicle with elevated ride height. The same goes for laying your rifle sideways on the hood or trunk of a vehicle to keep more of yourself behind the vehicle. That doesn't work well unless you have distance from your threat or the threat is not elevated. So you have to be smart when picking the technique you use. Gunfights are fluid, and can be very unforgiving when a bad choice is made. My thinking has always been never to give up mobility if the threat is close because movement eats up time. Moving from shooting underneath a vehicle also causes you to lose sight of your threat momentarily which will add to confusion when hearing pew, pew, pew. For me a car is only cover if it is all that is around, such as in a traffic stop situation, or until I can get behind a building or something that stops bullets better than a car. Not that they don't stop bullets a lot but I don't feel as warm and fuzzy behind a car like I do a building.

[Hmac]

What are your credentials?

[26 Inf]

Sounds like a cop I might have trained. (from his location I know he isn't)

He makes points that I hope good police trainers everywhere bring up when discussing cover.

ETA: This is one thing I always wrote on the board during officer survival lectures: 'When I teach tactics, I'm betting your life.' I always exhorted folks to question what they were being taught, with the mindset that if I can't explain why it is being taught, maybe it shouldn't be taught.

A lot of trainers, not referring to anyone in particular, tend to ignore what the bad guy can do to counter your tactics, to me that is an injustice. Most of us are smart enough to understand no tactic is perfect for all situations, those situations need to be brought out - 'okay here is what I see as a weak point about this tactic....'

Cover is all about material, angles and mobility. JMO

[noslorob]

26 Inf- Hmac has my creds. Not a cop. I am in no way, nor have I ever been affiliated with Law Enforcement

There are SO many things to take into consideration in a gunfight. When you add in vehicles it adds more variables. First thing to acknowledge right off the bat is that a VERY, V E R Y small percentage of the population will ever need to know vehicle tactics. Unless of course a Red Dawn scenario occurs. Not saying to anyone don't do vehicle training. Absolutely do it. Firearms training is like working out. Sometimes it's nice to do it differently and take you out of your comfort zone ect. Breaks up the monotony of flat ranges. I would say that you should scrutinize the instructor bio before taking a vehicle tactics class. The second and in my mind most important.... Everything changes when gunfire erupts. People "process" this action differently. Shit gets "real" and somebody IS getting shot, and most likely dying. I am a former adrenaline junky. I am by no means a Commando or badass, nor do I consider myself a subject matter expert. But I have jumped from an airplane while in flight, and was scared every time. Even that was different, for the simple reason that I was trained, and had confidence in my equipment. I also knew that statistically it was highly unlikely that my chute would malfunction. When the bullets start whizzing there are no stats you will be able to recite that will calm the nerves. You may not even know where the shooting is coming from initially. It can be confusing. Your ears will be ringing. Which is why I am a HUGE proponent of mixing shooting with exercise. The only thing I have seen that remotely replicates the stress is to do shooting drills after running 25-50 yards and have someone shooting IN A SAFE MANNER AND DIRECTION near you.

[Hmac]

26 Inf- Hmac has my creds.

Yup. No questions on my end.

[noslorob]

Sounds like a cop I might have trained. (from his location I know he isn't)

He makes points that I hope good police trainers everywhere bring up when discussing cover.

ETA: This is one thing I always wrote on the board during officer survival lectures: 'When I teach tactics, I'm betting your life.' I always exhorted folks to question what they were being taught, with the mindset that if I can't explain why it is being taught, maybe it shouldn't be taught.

A lot of trainers, not referring to anyone in particular, tend to ignore what the bad guy can do to counter your tactics, to me that is an injustice. Most of us are smart enough to understand no tactic is perfect for all situations, those situations need to be brought out - 'okay here is what I see as a weak point about this tactic....'

Cover is all about material, angles and mobility. JMO

In reference to your comments... Your right on point as well. I fear that good, hell, any vehicle tactics and counter ambush training are not being conducted by the majority of LE agencies nationwide. I also fear that too many LE trainers want the instructor title, but never give any thoughts to the responsibility that goes with it. Teaching bad tactics can and has cost lives. Then they just read from the lesson plan, never demonstrating a skill or a drill. Not that I have ever seen this since I am in NO WAY affiliated with LE.

[prepare]

Backing off several feet and not crowding your cover can also give you a tactical advantage expanding your field of view instead of collapsing it and decreasing your options.